La Scala or Belle Bass?

[Wrench722]

Which one has the better sounding bass? I have been over this forum and the internet and can not find a straight answer.

[Max2]

I probably couldn't distinguish the sound of the bass between the two even though I have owned both. However, I can hear a difference in the mid output due to the smaller mid horn in the Belle. To me, its a little more beamy and sounds better if your listening area is a little further back and no too far off of center.  IMO, the Belle wins the looks dept. and the La Scala wins the overall sound dept. The LaScala may go a tad lower in bass, but plenty of experts here to point that out.

[moray james]

they are not much different but if you want to nit pick the LaScala but a Peavey FH1 is the best of both and better than either. Note that none of these make bass they were not designed to and really ought to be crossed out at about 80 to 90Hz.. For bass you need a longer horn and a larger mouth no way around it you cannot put an elephant into a shoe box. So if you were to build a Belle with an extended nose on the dog house and also extend the cabinet to meet up with the point of the dog house you would have built a Peavey FH1. Hope this helps.

If you want more bass extension and top end extension enough to let you go two way with bass as good or better than a Kgirn (similar size) look at the University Classic there is a corner version of this horn called the dean I also have drawings for that if you are interested.

Edited July 31, 2015 by moray james

[MookieStl]

If you plan to use either/or in factory condition, modest up grades allowed, you would be very hard pressed to tell the difference between the two. They are basically the same design concept with the same driver, one just made to look pretty. Both have excellent quick hard hitting bass. They don't go as low as some want but the lowest octave can be achieved with a sub. Which type of sub to use will be another debate. For the vast majority of music, you will have all the bass you need. HT may require that sub.

[Wrench722]

Planning on building just the bass bin to 3/4 scale with 12" and use them as HT subs with SA1000 amp's.       

[MookieStl]

I saw where you bought that amp. I have one and it performs very well for me. Don't push it into low ohm loads, it doesn't like that. I don't know how the University design that morey james suggested would work out with being scaled down, I've heard they are great as designed. That would be a question beyond my scope. I am sure someone will be along to help. Good luck, it sounds like a fun project. I'm currently building a couple taped horn subs myself and having a blast (so far).

[Wrench722]

I will be using it at 4 ohms.

The University design is too big!

[moray james]

what about Claude's 1/4 pie horn but you will still need a sub and a cab for above. The Khorn as loved as it is really is not a subwoofer. I would be more inclined to suggest a Chorus ll (or Forte ll which actually plays lower than a khorn) along with a pair of subs. You can't scale horns. Yes you can build a scale version of any horn that you want physically but acoustically it won't work. Which is what I was saying "you can't scale horns". The length of the horn (usually 1/4 wave long) and the mouth area along with the expansion flair is what makes a horn. If you look at the physical dimensions of a Klipsch K402 horn which is the best horn Klipsch has ever produced you will see just how large a mid horn should be. Some members here have mid horns over 32" in diametre. Hope this helps to explain. Smaller driver make for longer horns if you keep the cut off the same.

Edited August 2, 2015 by moray james

[djk]

"Planning on building just the bass bin to 3/4 scale with 12"

 

Why are good HF horns bigger than a LaScala?

 

And you want to make something smaller?

 

(let us know how that works out)
 

Edited August 1, 2015 by djk

[Wrench722]

djk.

You seem a bit confused.

Yes

There are no horns in a sub.

Just a quarter Smaller.

If you want to know about what I build check out my photo bucket (wrench722)

[USNRET]

Here is a straight answer from a boy that has both in original configuration, in the same room and with the same electronics: Belles have less horiness and more bass. THAT is my opinion.

 

Edit: and both needed more bass

Edited August 1, 2015 by USNRET

[Wrench722]

Thank you USNRET! That's all I am looking for!

[karlson3]

0.75^3 = 42% bulk - my 10 cubic foot FH1 have their LF corner outdoors around 110Hz.   RCA-Fan publshed a compact 70Hz horn for a 12"

[Wrench722]

0.75^3 = 42% bulk - my 10 cubic foot FH1 have their LF corner outdoors around 110Hz.   RCA-Fan publshed a compact 70Hz horn for a 12"

Haaaa.... Ok if you say so???

[DizRotus]

Hello,

To answer your specific question, in my experience, the bass from La Scalas or Belles is indistinguishable. The differences in the mid-range horns make more of a difference, which is not to say better or worse, but different. That difference could be perceived as a difference in bass output. Under similar circumstances they would measure essentially the same regarding bass.

I applaud DIY and your willingness to build a 3/4 scale La Scala/Belle. Although you didn't ask for opinions about the wisdom of using a full sized La Scala or Belle as a sub for HT, not to mention a mini version, my opinion is don't bother.

I guarantee that djk is not confused; terse and blunt perhaps, but not confused. He knows more about horn loaded speakers than most on this forum, including yours truly. You essentially asked which has better bass for for HT sub use, to which djk answered, neither.

In his inimitable way, djk is questioning your decision to use as a sub for HT a smaller version of a design that is not a sub. Even with the La Scala bass mod, originated by djk (do a search), a full sized La Scala is not a sub. For many, the bass produced by La Scalas/Belles is sufficient without a sub. Personally, I would use one, or more, tapped horn subs to supplement the bass from La Scalas, Belles or K-horns, especially for HT.

Please enjoy your project and share your results.

Edited August 4, 2015 by DizRotus

[moray james]

if you want bass in a compact volume you might consider a PPSL sub (push pull slot loaded). These are as clean as a horn but a whole lot smaller. DJK has much experience with this design.

Just in case the Belle design is what you want to go for (you would get the same results with a LaScala or a Peavey FH1) member Zobsky is finishing off a Belle style cab with a reflex volume to enhance bass output so you can see where that path leads.

Edited August 2, 2015 by moray james

[karlson3]

I think DJK was hinting that when scaled x 0.75,  LF cutoff will be higher than a stock LS or Belle

 

I tend to prefer Karlson-couplers

 

 

my FH1 outdoors

RCA-Fan's 70Hz horn - Bill showed a sim of this doing better than the Universiy Classic (not sure which woofers)

PWK's LB76 - my crude sim  - IIRC a little bastard would be about 5.6 cubic foot bulk

[karlson3]

is there a way to edit posts anymore? - ah - I see - anyhow, here's a bit on the LB76 - I'd like to know the throat area for K33 - it could be fun if one could get the sensitivity out of it like PWK plus it should have some "hit" - http://www.itishifi.com/search/label/LB76

 

I used to have the dimensions worked out for LB76's bass section - if any readers have them, then please post

Edited August 4, 2015 by karlson3

[moray james]

I think DJK was hinting that when scaled x 0.75,  LF cutoff will be higher than a stock LS or Belle

 

I tend to prefer Karlson-couplers

 

 

my FH1 outdoors

RCA-Fan's 70Hz horn - Bill showed a sim of this doing better than the Universiy Classic (not sure which woofers)

PWK's LB76 - my crude sim  - IIRC a little bastard would be about 5.6 cubic foot bulk

[/quote)

The blue and green response graphs are which speaker(s)? And do you have a response for RCA-Fan's 70 Hz. horn? Thanks for posting.

[karlson3]

re:FH1 graphs, Blue = mic laying on the ground, Green = mic about a foot off the ground and 30 degrees off axis horizontally - FH1 are nice as were braced well.

 

here's RCA Fan's 70Hz horn (red) vs his K-slot back loaded horn with a Fostex (blue) - I thought about using a B&C 12pe32

but Bill says a heavier woofer is more appropriate - so perhaps the inexpensive Dayton PA310-8 12" would work well enough (?)

 

LB76's published curve isn't horribly off the simple AJ-horn sim

Edited August 5, 2015 by karlson3