One for the Educators in the crowd

[Jim Naseum]

.

And remind me how many of those "dudes" there are again?

"While others were playing with toy action figures, I was playing with amplifiers and speakers."

Guess who said that?

That's how independent learning takes place.

Yeah, and I've done more learning in the last 6 years AFTER employment in another job that actually was in the field you're referring to. Not to mention, what career am I going to get from that? Not a damn thing is the correct answer. It hasn't gained me fortunes now, it hasn't given me any certifications to come. It certainly isn't getting me a job, and it isn't teaching me squat about fundamentals. Your using me as an example is a poor one at best. Especially since you claim that someone like me should be able to do all kinds of crazy and unique things that I'm apparently just not telling you about.

I seriously can't stand that...you want to talk about "ancient thought" - yet you sit there and use a fancier version of just that. Do you realize how annoying it is when my mom says "How do you know all this stuff", when all I'm doing is opening the task manager and killing a program on her desktop? I've been exposed to it, so I happen to know how to make it work again. Happenstance learning is not independent learning. Don't confuse the two.

Happenstance is just your particular anecdote, isn't it?

Putting some intention and direction into self education is not unusual or difficult.

It feels like you are trying to argue that education can only exist under an large bureaucratic infrastructure. I just don't buy that.

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[Jim Naseum]

Some inspiration for autodidactism.

http://www.davidmansaray.com/big-self-education-project

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/self-education

http://www.creativitypost.com/education/11_tips_for_self_education_in_the_internet_age

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[Jim Naseum]

"A box full of circuit boards sits at the foot of Ahmed’s small bed in central Irving. His door marks the border where the Mohamed family’s cramped but lavishly decorated house begins to look like the back room at RadioShack.

“Here in high school, none of the teachers know what I can do,” Ahmed said, fiddling with a cable while a soldering iron dangled from the shelf behind him.

He loved robotics club in middle school and was searching for a similar niche in his first few weeks of high school."

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/northwest-dallas-county/headlines/20150915-irving-ninth-grader-arrested-after-taking-homemade-clock-to-school.ece

This is the kind of kid that will for into the future.

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[Travis In Austin]

"A box full of circuit boards sits at the foot of Ahmed’s small bed in central Irving. His door marks the border where the Mohamed family’s cramped but lavishly decorated house begins to look like the back room at RadioShack.

“Here in high school, none of the teachers know what I can do,” Ahmed said, fiddling with a cable while a soldering iron dangled from the shelf behind him.

He loved robotics club in middle school and was searching for a similar niche in his first few weeks of high school."

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/northwest-dallas-county/headlines/20150915-irving-ninth-grader-arrested-after-taking-homemade-clock-to-school.ece

This is the kind of kid that will for into the future.

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Arrested for bringing a homemade digital clock to school to show his science teacher.

Edited September 16, 2015 by dwilawyer

[Jim Naseum]

But it was just a clock.

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[The History Kid]

.

I wonder if it gives warm feelings to those who have dedicated their lives to the field of speakers and audio to know you're comparing a kid who doesn't even know how a crossover works to them. But obviously, because I was interested in bigger, badder speakers and amps when I was younger, that totally means that I'm an expert, right?

It feels like you are trying to argue that education can only exist under an large bureaucratic infrastructure. I just don't buy that.

And it feels like you're trying to dismiss and indicate that education just isn't necessary at all, or that everyone should teach themselves. Which flat out does not work in any society under. Neither does singular subject manifest. There's a reason people need to understand history, literature, language, mathematics, general sciences - have an appreciation for the arts: music, painting, writing. Your impression is that you think that's all bunk - and all evidence in the real world today where most of that's been striped out already would beg to differ.

[Jim Naseum]

And it feels like you're trying to dismiss and indicate that education just isn't necessary at all,

Oh no. I argue for extensive, lifelong education. I've never ever argued against education. I've argued against Public Schools. That's just an argument against institutions.

 

Which flat out does not work in any society under

It worked for thousands of years before the Public School system.

 

There's a reason people need to understand history, literature, language, mathematics, general sciences - have an appreciation for the arts: music, painting, writing.

Absolutely! I am an outspoken person for the benefits of an extensive liberal arts education. Go back and see that I recommended that the most important early skill was reading, and I suggested the world's greatest literature as a starting point. Liberal arts is the foundation for any education.

 

Your impression is that you think that's all bunk

You're misunderstanding or misreading me. I have only argued that public schools are too slow and teach a bogus brand of history which amounts to nothing but government propaganda.

 

You're mistaking my dislike of the public school system with a dislike of liberal arts education. And nothing could be farther from my view. I would have kids researching monumental historical events, and reading the world's best literature, and getting deeply involved in art criticism all during their education. The difference is, I would discover their passion and have them dive very deeply into that passion, be it computer science, mechanics, fashion design, poetry, music, biology or whatever it may be. You've probably mistaken my comments about that as not caring for the rest. No, not true at all. I'm a passionate advocate of the lifelong learning process.

[The History Kid]

Oh no. I argue for extensive, lifelong education. I've never ever argued against education. I've argued against Public Schools. That's just an argument against institutions.

Then it seems you and I have encountered a misunderstanding.

 

  

 

It worked for thousands of years before the Public School system.

When the population was more shallow, and the workforce environment hadn't evolved. Sure.

 

You're misunderstanding or misreading me.

I think that's the crux of our dialogue in this thread.

Edited September 16, 2015 by IbizaFlame

[Jim Naseum]

I think that's the crux of our dialogue in this thread.

 

Let me make one last clarification.

 

Institutions and bureaucracies like the public school system are not needed in order to get a first rate education in modern society.

[Marvel]

That's very succinct and gets straight to the heart of the matter... and I agree completely!

[Travis In Austin]

I think that's the crux of our dialogue in this thread.

Let me make one last clarification.

Institutions and bureaucracies like the public school system are not needed in order to get a first rate education in modern society.

Well for some things they are. Hmmmmmm, lets see, what kind of professions or occupations would you like to see formal education and training by an institution, public or private, or certification by a bureaucracy as opposed to being "self educated."

Medicine

Nursing

Pharmacology

Psychology

Marriage and family therapist

Police Officer

Law

Accounting

Engineer

Architect

Airline Pilot

Train Engineer

Accountant

Optometrist

Dentist

Well those are just a few where I would prefer the individual was delayed and had to attend a public or private institution or be certified by a giant bureaucracy.

Edited September 17, 2015 by dwilawyer

[Travis In Austin]

Some inspiration for autodidactism.

http://www.davidmansaray.com/big-self-education-project

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/self-education

http://www.creativitypost.com/education/11_tips_for_self_education_in_the_internet_age

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That 3rd link is awesome.

The Great Courses by the Teaching Company is also excellent.

[Jim Naseum]

I think that's the crux of our dialogue in this thread.

Let me make one last clarification.

Institutions and bureaucracies like the public school system are not needed in order to get a first rate education in modern society.

Well for some things they are. Hmmmmmm, lets see, what kind of professions or occupations would you like to see formal education and training by an institution, public or private, or certification by a bureaucracy as opposed to being "self educated."

Medicine

Nursing

Pharmacology

Psychology

Marriage and family therapist

Police Officer

Law

Accounting

Engineer

Architect

Airline Pilot

Train Engineer

Accountant

Optometrist

Dentist

Well those are just a few where I would prefer the individual was delayed and had to attend a public or private institution or be certified by a giant bureaucracy.

In post 111 I made it crystal clear that CREDENTIALED professions are an exception. It's not that anyone can't learn it, but getting the credential requires formal accredited education.

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[garyrc]

Years ago (in the late '60s) Paul Goodman calculated that for the amount of money spent per student in the New York school system, including the cost of the administrative support (huge) and building & grounds maintenence one could afford to hire one supremely qualified master teacher (at a decent salary), and one college/graduate student intern for every 7 students.  A third adult -- a parent, community member, or the like, would be welcome.  They would meet in homes or donated store fronts, with blackboards (today it would be computers) and spend their days in continuous conversation between 2 to 3 adults and the 7 kids, while visiting the city's laboratories, concert halls, places of business, museums, libraries, etc. 

 

Some of this was adopted by some private schools in later years, but without the 2 (or 3) : 7 ratio.

 

Later, in the '80s, I think, two credentialed school teachers who had fled the system raised several adopted kids in Booneville, CA.  They and their children spent the day working the farm, while discussing and applying everything from mathematics to philosophy, ancient to modern.  None of the kids attended school, yet they all were admitted to prestigious universities.  Did they, miracle of miracles, do well on SAT/ACTs without their parents "teaching to the test?"  Or did they write brilliant essays and statements of purpose?  One thing they didn't need was either a private or public school diploma.

 

Yes, I know this would not work for everyone.  But, maybe a public school patterned after Goodman's idea would.

Edited September 17, 2015 by garyrc

[Travis In Austin]

Later, in the '80s, I think, two credentialed school teachers who had fled the system raised several adopted kids in Booneville, CA. They and their children spent the day working the farm, while discussing and applying everything from mathematics to philosophy, ancient to modern. None of the kids attended school, yet they all were admitted to prestigious universities. Did they, miracle of miracles, do well on SAT/ACTs without their parents "teaching to the test?" Or did they write brilliant essays and statements of purpose? One thing they didn't need was either a private or public school diploma.

Yes, I know this would not work for everyone. But, maybe a public school patterned after Goodman's idea would.

Good ole Boonville, we went through there many times on our way to Mendocino and Ft. Bragg.

They have four boys, the two youngest were adopted, on African American the other Native American.

The father was a professor at Washington University and was denied tenure because of his political beliefs and so he and his wife decided to drop out. He had a PhD from the University of Chicago in Sociology and studied at the London School of Economics. She has a masters from the London School of Economics.

The oldest three boys all attended Harvard undergrad. The oldest went to Harvard Medical School and then worked in public health in San Francisco fighting HIV. He works in the Obama Administration as the Director of the Office of National AIDS Policy.

The second oldest, went to law school, and then worked his way through medical school at Harvard as a lawyer.

The adopted AA son went got a degrer in AA Studies and then went to law school at Yale. He works for a legal aid type firm in the east providing legal services to the poor and in civil rights cases.

The 4th boy is going to a community college up in Sacramento and kind of figuring out what he wants to do.

The oldest boy took the SAT and scored in the 1300s.

The big question is if the boys have kids, did they home school them?

[garyrc]

 

Later, in the '80s, I think, two credentialed school teachers who had fled the system raised several adopted kids in Booneville, CA. They and their children spent the day working the farm, while discussing and applying everything from mathematics to philosophy, ancient to modern. None of the kids attended school, yet they all were admitted to prestigious universities. Did they, miracle of miracles, do well on SAT/ACTs without their parents "teaching to the test?" Or did they write brilliant essays and statements of purpose? One thing they didn't need was either a private or public school diploma.

Yes, I know this would not work for everyone. But, maybe a public school patterned after Goodman's idea would.

Good ole Boonville, we went through there many times on our way to Mendocino and Ft. Bragg.

They have four boys, the two youngest were adopted, on African American the other Native American.

The father was a professor at Washington University and was denied tenure because of his political beliefs and so he and his wife decided to drop out. He had a PhD from the University of Chicago in Sociology and studied at the London School of Economics. She has a masters from the London School of Economics.

The oldest three boys all attended Harvard undergrad. The oldest went to Harvard Medical School and then worked in public health in San Francisco fighting HIV. He works in the Obama Administration as the Director of the Office of National AIDS Policy.

The second oldest, went to law school, and then worked his way through medical school at Harvard as a lawyer.

The adopted AA son went got a degrer in AA Studies and then went to law school at Yale. He works for a legal aid type firm in the east providing legal services to the poor and in civil rights cases.

The 4th boy is going to a community college up in Sacramento and kind of figuring out what he wants to do.

The oldest boy took the SAT and scored in the 1300s.

The big question is if the boys have kids, did they home school them?

 

 

Wow!  Thanks for the updated and detailed information!

 

If you went to Mendocino often, did you ever go to Alphonso's Mercantile on the main street?  He had orchestral music from all over the world, and a great multi-volume music encyclopedia.  He provided me with music others seemed not to have heard of, such as Kabelac's Mystery of Time: Passacaglia for Large Orchestra.  His little store was the only place I ever heard a pair of Bose 901s sound good.  I think his secret was he always fed them with very powerful amps, starting with a Phase Linear 700 in about 1972, to a McIntosh that put out over 1,000 w.p.c. RMS a few years ago.  He passed away, so those days are over.

Edited September 18, 2015 by garyrc

[Jim Naseum]

Mendocino is exactly the kind of place a guy could have Bose 901s and not get criticized. Perhaps hang them from macrame slings?

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[garyrc]

Mendocino is exactly the kind of place a guy could have Bose 901s and not get criticized. Perhaps hang them from macrame slings?

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Lol.  He probably had a little macrame in his store.  He sold the work of local artists and craftspersons.  It was a pleasure to wander his shop looking at them, petting a succession of his cats (especially Mrs. Peaches) while listening to classical and modern orchestral music.  The Bose 901s actually sounded good, honest!  Everywhere else, they sounded muddy.  Maybe being able to see an ocean inlet from his windows helped the sound.  Someone once asked Alphonso why he didn't take his musical expertise to a big city record store, where it was distinctly lacking.  He raised his wine glass to the sun setting over the ocean and said, "What, and leave all this?"

[Axz Hout]

The Bose 901s actually sounded good, honest!

 

I have a friend  with  8 of the early Bose 901s,  two in each corner on the Bose stand,  not using the Bose EQ  -  powered with the Phase Linear 700.

 

These are used as pool table surrounds.  Loads the room very well.   

[Jim]

Common Core Math was developed as a means to give black kids a level playing field with learning math,as the person who invented common core stated this. He is also black. What he stated was blacks can't learn as well as whites, and even less than Asians. His methodology was it will put everyone on a level playing field. Don't believe me? Look it up.

 

He was also paid a boatload of money to do this,and this is another reason it's being pushed on kids. The government run school system,which has shown it doesn't work, gets more money from the government as well as local governments for using it. If they don't, money gets taken away from them.

 

My kids teachers have asked me numerous times not to teach my kids how to do math the other way as it "interferes" with their forced teaching,and if the child doesn't do the long math, they get marked incorrect, or an incomplete. My youngest has said to his teachers many times, "This is stupid, why do I have to do things the long way when I can do it quicker"? Teachers hands are tied and they are also threatened with the potential of losing their jobs or being put on desk duty. Government forces this on the local governments,which in turn forces it on schools and teachers. It's all about money, not knowledge or teaching our kids.