Deang Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 I hear about the issue about once or twice a month. The Sonicaps that Bob likes to use bring the tweeter and midrange just forward enough to upset the balance of the speaker. Most seem to enjoy being over-run by high frequency energy, so we don't hear much about it, especially on the forum, where Bob commands so much respect. I suspect that Bob would just say that this is how they are supposed to sound, and work with placement or use tone controls. All of the original capacitors, in all of the older Klipsch loudspeakers were either paper in oil, Mylar in oil, or epoxy coated Mylars. Even new Heritage still uses Mylars. I once asked someone within Klipsch why they used them, and I was told, "To keep the loudspeaker from becoming unduly forward." Many years ago I experimented exhaustively with a set of Heresys, and found only a very small group of capacitors that didn't seem to cause the horns to walk all over me: Jensens, Kimbers, Auricap, AudioCap Thetas, Dayton Audio /Bennic and Jantzen CrossCaps. The inexpensive brands brought significant improvement, but make no mistake, the films and PIOs ruled the roost. The brands that exacerbated the issue or just sounded grainy, were anything by Solen, the higher end Janzens, MusiCap, polypropylene motor runs, and the Sonicap. Since there wasn't any rhyme or reason to this, I concluded that ESR was just one of several factors, and that DA was an overlooked component - which eventually led to the battery biased experiments. That didn't take off, and what a shame. All of the polypropylenes tipped things forward, some worse than others, but they also cleaned up the signal path and opened things up. So, I tried to find things that did that without providing too much of a good thing. PIOs are best followed by films. These are often cost prohibitive for most, so I use the Daytons for PCB work and recommend films if I'm asked about something better. Based on my last experience with this, from now on, I'll be pushing for Jensen PIOs or Jupiters on boards for anyone who really wants the best sound possible. Bob doesn't like the Dayton Audio brand because ESR figures aren't as low as the Sonicap and the measurements are inconsistent as well. I get his logic, I really do. We have been on opposite sides of the fence about this from the beginning, and I will lose the argument on paper every time. Just so there is no misunderstanding here, I consider Bob a dear friend and have said some things in the past that I now deeply regret. Even when I was going through that period of being a complete ***, he covered my back. He recently worked to troubleshoot a problem for me, and helped to save a valuable product. For these reasons, I have toned down the rhetoric, and now make sure people understand that he produces outstanding work for the money -- but that the sound might be too bright/edgy for some. The great majority obviously have no problem with it, and have always given a big thumbs up to the improvement. My theory is that most who listen to horns are just plain deaf. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Interesting okay. Are you saying that the measured SPL of a tweeter changes when you change the capacitor? Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 I loved the Sonicaps when I got my first upgrade from Bob! It was certainly a big improvement from the old worn out caps I had and I considered the purchase a bargain. Bob is also great to work with... he is very patient and willing to help. I agree with Dean though that they make things bright and I prefer other caps. For me, that which is too bright, for others, might be just right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) Interesting okay. Are you saying that the measured SPL of a tweeter changes when you change the capacitor? Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Yes, absolutely. The worse the original capacitors measure, the more output you get back when you put the new capacitors in. Edited September 18, 2015 by Crankysoldermeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Interesting okay. Are you saying that the measured SPL of a tweeter changes when you change the capacitor? Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Yes, absolutely. The worse the original capacitors measure, the more output you get back when you put the new capacitors in. I wonder if a simple L-pad would be a good addition? Many of the older classic speakers I've owned had L-pads for the tweeters and midrange drivers. In effect, you could then own "millions" of different sounding speakers. The most glaring and obvious differences between speakers of roughly the same size, is just the output/frequency contour diagram. Bump the mids, bump the bass, bump the highs and the sonority changes. Same speaker as before, but sounds radically different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 True. However, we are after real improvements, which are normally found in the nuances. A clean, relaxed and open presentation cannot be produced by manipulating the frequency response. I've demonstrated this several times at some of the Klipsch gatherings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 I would have like to heard that. I figured the distortion, the level response and the spray pattern was about all you could affect. More to learn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) True. However, we are after real improvements, which are normally found in the nuances. A clean, relaxed and open presentation cannot be produced by manipulating the frequency response. I've demonstrated this several times at some of the Klipsch gatherings. Manipulating the freq response does indeed help, but I question if it should be handled at the speaker. It seems to me that the speaker should be engineered for flat response, and the eq should be handled by the user upstream, on an as needed (to address local acoustics) or desired ("restoring the bass" via Chris' remastering methods on source material, loudness/smiley curve for low level listening, etc) basis. I could be wrong. All I know is that according to the omnimic measurements I've done on mine, fortes w/ crites networks measure exceptionally flat on axis down to where room modes come into the picture. Forte bass is inherently tight and dry, and thus kind of anemic without the benefit of close proximity to walls/corners. Proper balance of the bass to the rest most definitely helps produce a clean, relaxed presentation, where the image scales properly. I think the OP simply has a phase/wiring issue that hopefully is worked out. Properly functional forte II are dope *** speakers. Edited September 18, 2015 by Ski Bum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 18, 2015 Author Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) Issue fixed. One of the set of wires coming from the crossover itself was backwards on the crossover itself. Thank You all for the input. Edited September 18, 2015 by Jim 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) Issue fixed. One of the wires coming from the crossover itself was backwards. Thank You all for the input. Awesome! Happy listening from now on. Enjoy. Just curious which one? The midrange? Edited September 18, 2015 by babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 I don't know what Bob's forte crossovers are exact to Klipsch circuit or not. But caps change phasing and if not the same could present a slight or significant phase change in a driver. Did you try putting one of the old crossovers back in and set system to mono and go back and forth with the balance to see what the difference between the two crossovers sound like? When I install a speaker change I always do just one at first and make this test to understand what I'm going to be hearing from that change. Just an idea for you to try. Very, very, very good idea-------Must remember beep Must remember beep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 18, 2015 Author Share Posted September 18, 2015 Midrange squawker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 18, 2015 Author Share Posted September 18, 2015 I don't know what Bob's forte crossovers are exact to Klipsch circuit or not. But caps change phasing and if not the same could present a slight or significant phase change in a driver. Did you try putting one of the old crossovers back in and set system to mono and go back and forth with the balance to see what the difference between the two crossovers sound like? When I install a speaker change I always do just one at first and make this test to understand what I'm going to be hearing from that change. Just an idea for you to try. Very, very, very good idea-------Must remember beep Must remember beep I also did that when the issue came up. Covered each driver individually and listened as well. Spoke to Bob about 30 minutes ago and he directed me to check the wiring coming from the crossover directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Yea Jim, just to clarify I meant I must remember for future troubleshooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 18, 2015 Author Share Posted September 18, 2015 Yea Jim, just to clarify I meant I must remember for future troubleshooting. No problem, I didn't take it as something negative, but helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 My theory is that most who listen to horns are just plain deaf. That's hilarious.... ....and true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 My theory is that most who listen to horns are just plain deaf. That's hilarious.... ....and true. Self fulfilling prophesy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 I just realized I fall into that category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Good deal Jim, glad it turned out to be a simple fix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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