Are we alone?

[thebes]

I am certain there are dumb aliens, especially in our local group. But the farther away aliens are, the older they will be which means a head start in evolution. Evolution really can only go two ways, dumb or smart. Since the dumb ones most likely don't survive very long (solar systems by nature run out of fuel) there only leaves the smart ones that have survived this long.

Great post in a fun thread.  So what you are basically saying if we want to peddle Bose, for example, to some Rubes, we'd be better off sending ships farther out on the Galactic Plane, cause that's where the marks are.  And since we are pretty far out on the arm ourselves, should we meet up with people from farther in towards the Rim, then we are about to get hustled.

[dbomberger]

Looking for evidence of absence, or absence of evidence? 

 

And is the absence of evidence, evidence of absence or just incomplete data?

[Wolfbane]

 

Looking for evidence of absence, or absence of evidence? 

 

And is the absence of evidence, evidence of absence or just incomplete data?

 

 

Its all circular, like the song that never ends. 

[Mallette]

We should be thankful that two important works (at least as far as Roman civil engineering( were created after the library was lost

 

Haven't read Frontinus yet but LOVED Vitruvius!  To have the works of an ancient plumber! 

 

As to what the Irish monks saved, it's wonderful.  Others did so as well, including the Moslems.  However, while the remains are impressive I will hazard a guess that it's all perhaps 1%.  Estimates are all over the place, but 500,000 volumes isn't uncommon.

 

Dave

[WMcD]

I'm glad you like it Dave.

I suppose you're right that these reflect plumbing. Or more accurately, water supply. Getting fresh water from far away solves the problem of it being contaminated with sewage. A great public health issue.

I note that even though the knowledge was preserved in books, and aqueducts keep working or were present, no one built another set in a far off land, or even Europe. Maybe that is not entirely true, but mostly.

There is an interesting book about Oliver Heaviside who grew up in the Victorian era. London was just one big cesspool at the time. They could have learned a lot from the Romans.

WMcD

[Pete H]

If we are, it's a very sad state of affairs and there can continue to be wars and insanity over the debate as to how and why we are here and who's book of stories is correct and should govern the rest of us. I would love to see concrete proof of the existence of other life spread far and wide throughout the universe (happens to be what I believe), just to stop all the BS going on and make people accountable for their actions, decisions and declarations that are based on the premise that we're not. Creativity and conscience allow all of us to fill in the vast amount of questions that we all have with conjecture, tradition, "common knowledge", speculation and a host of other unhealthy things that constrict all of us to a defined amount of free thought and I'm quite certain "within my own boundaries of thought" that the answers are still in the questions that we haven't even considered.

Didn't mean to rant, I just find it truly discouraging that as a planet and a species, we are fighting and killing over the same made up issues and arguments that have existed since history has been recorded. The average person can't deal with the fact that they will die not knowing the answers to 99% of the questions they have and instead throw a blanket over the entire thing to make themselves feel better. We are at best, a molecule in the vast expanse, and that scares the crap out of most people. Just my thoughts, I could be, and am most certainly wrong on many accounts.

I hope the other life forms that may or may not exist, have great music and sound reproduction equipment. So who's the resident alien sleeper? Speak up, you little green, gray, reptilian bastterd so we can all know the truth. Where do we, our planet, solar system and universe come from, what is the beginning, what are the boundaries and where is the end..................wish I knew the answer to one of these, but I don't think anyone on this forum will know any of them before we pass.

We all participate in this forum for the same underlying reasons that we respond to this post, we have questions and are seeking answers, yet there is not one among us that has reached the audio nirvana and has recoiled from this or other forums, having gained all the knowledge and answers, it's all based on perception.

I'm just looking for a new pre-pro for my shop and look where it's gotten me. I trust that those of you who have read this post, have had some deep thoughts, will provide some answers, or just had a great laugh, as I have. Now, back to the real world.

[Mallette]

While there are other examples of aqueducts even in the new world, nobody remote reached the scale of Roman plumbing until the 19th century.  Vitruvius simply assumed a lot of the underlying math and engineering and between not having anything like the resources of the empire nor understanding how to make proper cement and such the west basically had to learn it all over again over 15 centuries or so.  The bulk of that fundamental information may well have been in the Alexandrine library.  We don't have a clue about Hero's steam turbine beyond the fact of his building it.  These things may well have been used for a variety of purposes all over the empire...but given their nature none would have survived.  I am of the opinion that we really are way ignorant of the true extent of Roman technology. 

 

Dave

[WMcD]

Dave,

 

Of course I'm with you on this.

 

Concrete is an interesting subject.  A decade or so ago the family went to Cozumel.  There was the remains of a Maya town near the ocean.  My recall is that at least one dry wall construction had an arch and at the edges of the arch there was some mortar used.  Perhaps they had figured out the art of baking limestone dust to make cement.  I really appreciate the smart cookie (or smart cookies in parallel civilizations) who thought of it.  Liquid rock.

 

The nest day we drive inland to Chichen Itza.  There is a modern government run gift center restaurant with a parking lot.  So we stopped there. 

 

Then there is footpath though the jungle with folks sitting on the ground selling tee-shirts and souvenirs. 

 

But then you walk farther and break out onto he large plain with the ziggurat and many surrounding buildings.  I was impressed beyond recovery.  It was like The Mother Ship had landed.

 

It was a very interesting afternoon.  One fillip was that the iridescent blue butterflies were in season.

 

Suffice to say, the Myan had created a magnificent civilization without having the Romans for inspiration or a source of technology. (Unless you count some theories that ships from the Old World had reached there.)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization

 

But going back to Rome and even Egypt.  I seems to me that the great engineering works were possible only because of a sophisticated government with planning and (ugg) taxes.  Hopefully not as much slavery as is sometimes assumed.  While engineering knowledge may have been lost, so too might have been the governmental structures which funded the projects.

 

WMcD

Edited November 6, 2015 by William F. Gil McDermott

[Jim Naseum]

The technology seems advanced, the social structure seem primitive. Extensive human sacrifice, for example. That would lead me to suspect the technology came from external source.

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[Wolfbane]

The technology seems advanced, the social structure seem primitive. Extensive human sacrifice, for example. That would lead me to suspect the technology came from external source.

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The Mayan's themselves believe their origin is from what is now China.

[Mallette]

While the structures are impressive and fascinating, their technology level was barely the difference between the Romans and us.  The rest of the world was incredibly ahead.  We don't even really know when the wheel was invented and it never appeared in the new world.  The Antikythera mechanism is vastly ahead of anything from elsewhere and still not fully understood.  Machines of that sophistication did not happen again until the late 18th and early 19th century.  I have become increasingly of the opinion that even the experts greatly underestimate the technology of the Roman world as these machines were of materials that simply don't last.  The Antikythera mechanism suggests a LONG period of development to reach that level.  Really no guessing what else they may have had.  Double acting pumps were common, and not "reinvented" until the 19th century.  Lord knows what else...

 

Dave