Let's talk about bass - cont'd

[onemoretime]

I agree, there does seem to be a lot of complaining about lack of bass from certain speakers, esp. Heritage. In my limited time here it appears to me Cornwall, Heresy, and Belle  get the most knocks.

My take might be different, because I started out in audio using budget bookshelf speakers which had no hope of reaching deep bass. I was so grateful when I finally pulled the trigger and bought a Hsu Research VTF-3 Mk IV for out home theater! Let me tell you, when that sucker got properly dialed in everything came to life, including the Ascend Acoustic mini-towers I'd upgraded to from the bookshelf models.

Recently I snagged a heckuva deal on three Heresy HIP 1's, which are now sitting in my home theater as left & right mains + center channel, KG 3.5's doing rear surround duty, all supported on the bottom end by the Hsu Research sub. Wow is all I can say. Movies like "Saving Private Ryan" are astounding. Granted I have a killer sub and the magnets on the Heresy HIP woofers are supposedly larger than standard Heresies, but I loved hearing the bass and clear mids and highs in the HIPs when I first tested them in my 2-channel rig.

So is it a failing of Klipsch Heritage line if sound is improved by adding a sub for handling the lower registers? I don't see how. Some folks think bass should be boomy-rumbly-shaky, but to me that's in pursuit of something completely different. Net-net, think about your application (home theater vs. 2-channel), your source material (analog vs. digital, natural sounds vs. sound effects) and take your ears out to multiple auditions. Things will fall into place, in a way that no one's opinions can do nearly as well for you.

 

[RoboKlipsch]

I think the quality of the sound someone has, and particularly how it sounds to them, is the only thing that really matters.  There is some gratification that comes from others appreciating your setup, but in the end, it's about you.

 

When it comes to bass, my view is that if possible have a system that is capable of reproducing whatever it is you want to listen to.  With music, this is relatively easy and straightforward, and really a matter of the above -- does it sound the way you want it to?

 

With home theater, bass capability becomes a real issue and one that I have spent the majority of my time here learning about, growing with, and appreciating.  From Bose "sub" to Yamaha/Klipsch basic subs to Klipsch high end sub to subs capable of recreating most anything within 99.99% of blu rays, the journey has taught me more about sound and room acoustics than I could have ever imagined.  With more left to go than I've learned so far.

 

When enough time and research is put into understanding what is possible, it quickly became clear to me that bass can be tight, clear, articulate, strong, punchy and awesome from many different setups.  It's a matter of what someone wants to hear, what they like, and how much it costs.

 

Within the world of home theater, I very much believe that it is a quest to create the very best bass reproduction in a room.  So many factors go into them -- placement, PEQ, correction software (like Audyssey, DIRAC, BFD etc.), integration with mains that it is a potentially complicated endeavour.  But one that I have found to be incredibly fun, and worth it!

 

Regarding music, I adhere to what I learned from Derrickdj -- good subs are capable of reproducing music just like HT.  Which you may prefer, a horn, IB, sealed, ported,etc., is preference and experience.  Making sure it's setup well -- that is the key.

 

Considering that the low end of most music is in the 30s or 40s, to me it makes sense to have the capability to reproduce those well and never sacrifice that low end.  At worst, you can turn off your sub(s)!  

 

If I were an audiophile, I would likely take Chris A's advice he has shared with me previously and put my sub(s) close to my mains.  With music, where the discerning ear is listening closely, I think it's much more important.  

 

 

[mustang guy]

1 hour ago, jason str said:

 

If that were the case tapped horns would not work.

 

Not going to make any difference unless you are crossing over too high.

 

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong. The rule of thumb is 1ms delay per foot of sound travel. If a horn path is say 9' longer with a THT than a LaScala, then the delay would be about 9ms between the sub hits and the LaScala bass bin hits. That delay can be tweaked to correct phase comb filter problems. 

 

Case in point. When you let Audyssey calculate distance and you are using horns, the microphone always thinks the horn loaded subs are further away than the tape measure. It then adds delay to the other speakers to account for this greater distance.

 

The rear of a tapped horn driver is 180 degrees out of phase with the mouth of the driver at the 1/4 tuned frequency so that the effect of the 1/4 wave hitting that driver then makes a second trip through the horn to make it a full 1/2 horn. As frequencies go up, the driver begins to recouple with the horn to make it a 1/2 horn. The Tapped Horn

[jason str]

A 21 Ft horn is getting almost to the point where you would need to use delay.

 

The longer the horn path and the higher the crossover frequency the worse the problem becomes..

 

1.5 milliseconds will be inaudible in the subwoofer passband, if i recall the threshold is 20 Ms but don't quote me as I'm going off the top of my head.

 

 

[wvu80]

I have changed my mind from a few years ago.  I was the guy who liked jazz and clear dialog from movies and I thought subs just muddied up the bottom end.  Now I think all speakers need a sub, or at least can benefit from a sub.

 

It's not because I like to "hear" the sub, I don't.  What I like is the woofers now have a more full low-end sound and you can't actually hear the sub working.

 

It's real clear the Klipsch CF-4's with the dual 12" woofers benefit the most from the 15" sub w/500watt.  They really have a lot of chest pound when played loud and the entire audio spectrum (think 88 key piano) is very accurate, with proper dynamics.

 

The Khorns are another discussion.  They have nearly sub-like output in stock form.  I still don't think I have the Khorns figured out to integrate into a 5.1 setup.  When played in stereo they lack nothing.

 

My favorite setup is a 2.1 or 3.1, using two-way speakers designed to be used with a sub.

[DrWho]

On 8/15/2016 at 11:31 AM, Deang said:

you get a solid 45Hz

Out of a lascala???? No way. Don't get me wrong...some fundamentals will be reproduced, but they're at a much reduced level compared to the rest of the spectrum. Even when in the corner.

 

Actually, a lascala tucked into the corner gets a nasty 1/4 wavelength boundary notch due to the shape of the cabinet. I guess most people have brutal room modes to contend with so it's probably not as noticeable until you're in a room without those issues.

 

The lascala/belle speakers "need" a subwoofer for many genres of music, and especially movies. It can't be a mediocre sub because that ends up being super distracting from the quality of the rest of the system.

[mustang guy]

5 hours ago, jason str said:

A 21 Ft horn is getting almost to the point where you would need to use delay.

 

The longer the horn path and the higher the crossover frequency the worse the problem becomes..

 

1.5 milliseconds will be inaudible in the subwoofer passband, if i recall the threshold is 20 Ms but don't quote me as I'm going off the top of my head.

 

 

Although the perceptible delay may be on the order of 100ms, there is another imperceptible delay you need to consider. The delay between your ears is much of the reason you can tell from which side of you a sound came from. That is less than 1ms, and it is very real. This is one of the reasons Audyssey and other surround units want to know speaker distance to 6" precision.

[onemoretime]

6 minutes ago, mustang guy said:

Although the perceptible delay may be on the order of 100ms, there is another imperceptible delay you need to consider. The delay between your ears is much of the reason you can tell from which side of you a sound came from. That is less than 1ms, and it is very real. This is one of the reasons Audyssey and other surround units want to know speaker distance to 6" precision.

Is it really worth getting Audyssey to measure this stuff? Just curious whether it's a cut above the programming in a decent AVR (like mine).

[derrickdj1]

Delays can be used for horn subs and speakers.  Danley talks about what is the delay on a tapped horn:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/#question_10

[JohnA]

On 8/15/2016 at 1:13 PM, derrickdj1 said:

If you could delay the LaScala a ms or 1.5 ms, I think the problem between the direct radiator sub and LaSacla would improve.  I had a buddy with a horn sub and direct radiator speakers.  The speakers were ahead of the sub.  We delayed the speakers based of the horn length path and bam!  Things sounded much better.

 

Why 1.5 ms (1.7 feet)?  Why not 3 feet, the length of the bass horn?

[derrickdj1]

11 minutes ago, John Albright said:

 

Why 1.5 ms (1.7 feet)?  Why not 3 feet, the length of the bass horn?

John, I should of just said delay.  It was quite a long time ago and I may be wrong on the delay we used: I was going off memory.  I did link a page on Danley discussing using a delay with tapped horns.  This should apply to to other horn subs as well since this is all physics related and no magic of a particular design.

 

I normally don't get into discussions on horn subs.  I have enough keeping up with regular subs since direct radiator subs are what I used.  Maybe one day I will build a horn sub.

[jason str]

Delay may be necessary for pro sound applications where optimal placement is not always available.

[mustang guy]

3 hours ago, onemoretime said:

Is it really worth getting Audyssey to measure this stuff? Just curious whether it's a cut above the programming in a decent AVR (like mine).

Audyssey does a lot more than measure speaker distance and set delays. It also EQ's the entire speaker system and overcomes room difficulties with some kind of pixie dust. Some people love it and some just don't. For movies it is the best thing out there. For music some people disable it.

 

The answer in short is that it really depends. It doesn't hurt to try Audyssey if you have the capability. If it is gonna cost you, then ignorance is bliss IMO.

[onemoretime]

2 minutes ago, mustang guy said:

Audyssey does a lot more than measure speaker distance and set delays. It also EQ's the entire speaker system and overcomes room difficulties with some kind of pixie dust. Some people love it and some just don't. For movies it is the best thing out there. For music some people disable it.

 

The answer in short is that it really depends. It doesn't hurt to try Audyssey if you have the capability. If it is gonna cost you, then ignorance is bliss IMO.

So are you using a free version or paying for a premium offering? Which paid version would you recommend and how much does it cost?

 

I'm happy enough with our current HT setup but expect to be making some changes. The 2-channel rig is a work in progress, so it might be worth it to get the most out of whatever new equipment is purchased.

Edited August 17, 2016 by onemoretime
Hit return too early.

[pzannucci]

6 hours ago, onemoretime said:

So are you using a free version or paying for a premium offering? Which paid version would you recommend and how much does it cost?

 

I'm happy enough with our current HT setup but expect to be making some changes. The 2-channel rig is a work in progress, so it might be worth it to get the most out of whatever new equipment is purchased.

If you have good measuring equipment and a way to do digital EQ on your sound, you will have close to what is provided with Audyssey's EQ.  Then you have to account for distance.  I'm not sure you will find anything around to do the work since it would require additional separate processing in a software package.  Then you have speaker phase relationships.  That is Dirac territory.

 

Once you have to worry about all that stuff, you need a lot of specialized hardware tied to good mics.  I doubt you will find all this stuff free since it is very specialized and usually requires additional hardware.  I don't think just software will cut it.

 

Nothing beats a well designed system in a good room since all the software can help but can also do just as much harm.

 

You might want to check out the minidsp site.

[RoboKlipsch]

Audyssey imo is an incredible piece of software.  That statement has nothing to do with anybody's skills doing their own setups and manual EQs. I have heard several systems now without any auto correction and some folks are skilled enough and/or have the rooms to do it without.

Like any piece of software, there is how it is recommended to be used for a basic user.  It assumes, like most models, a certain type of room, a certain listening area, and a certain number of measurement points....along with what it expects to be at least a somewhat traditional setup and layout.  Because few rooms meet their models exactly, Audyssey has a "learning curve" just like anything else.  It can be used to mild benefit, significant benefit, or especially with the better versions, a result that few could reproduce without professional skills.

 

Based upon the filtering it does and the results I have gotten and others here and throughout the web have posted, I have little doubt that if you want the greatest benefit, XT32 is the best option.   I am running XT, which I think is terrific.  The XT32 simply has a lot more filters, especially in the lower end, where correction is the most difficult (imo).

Do you need it?  No.  There are very detailed manual options for optimizing your system.  But in the lower end, I would believe it to be almost impossible for someone to balance the bass using only their ear and no measurements or correction.  

 

I think the most important investment someone can make is to get measurement equipment.  $100 for a UMIK and free REW software is a low entry point for what appears to me to be an incredibly powerful set of tools.  Ones that you will "dig" into for hours on end learning more and more and looking for improvements. 

[JohnA]

13 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

John, I should of just said delay.  It was quite a long time ago and I may be wrong on the delay we used: I was going off memory.  I did link a page on Danley discussing using a delay with tapped horns.  This should apply to to other horn subs as well since this is all physics related and no magic of a particular design.

 

I normally don't get into discussions on horn subs.  I have enough keeping up with regular subs since direct radiator subs are what I used.  Maybe one day I will build a horn sub.

 

O.K.  I'll play with it.  My La Scalas sit on the front Larger Subwoofers, so their mouth is in line with the front of the subwoofer cabinet. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91840

[derrickdj1]

Keep of posted on the results.  Are you also using auddysee and something like the mini dsp.  The mini dsp or Berhinger dsp amp or berhinger FBD would allow you to set the delay.  Danley talked about the delay can be from 3 to 20 ms depending on the XO.  You could try delays in multiples of 3 ms and see what sounds best.  Most likely you wont have to go that far. 

 

If you had Omnimic or REW a development of a notch at the XO would be a good indicator of when things are right.

[Rxonmymind]

Seems to be enough bass on this. 

Genre: Latin jazz lounge

Song:Wave ( First a warning. HEAVY bass comes out on the very first note. Be ready on standby to adjust your added subwoofer just in case. On stock since they don't go as "low" won't be a problem)

 

https://play.google.com/music/m/Tjvqfsz4j4k6aksrczonqmumn6q?t=Adios_-_Latin_Jazz_Lounge

 

Adios

https://play.google.com/music/m/Tjvqfsz4j4k6aksrczonqmumn6q?t=Adios_-_Latin_Jazz_Lounge

 

Let me know if your looking for more bass than this? Sounds wonderful on the Belle's. Horns baby! 

[Grizzog]

I'm of the camp that most any speaker can benefit from a good sub. It allows better room integration and allows you to place your mains in their proper location. I added a sub to my 19s and it really filled in the soundstage.