Klipschorn Questions

[ATLAudio]

Assuming you have an 18' wall, do you have to sit 9' away (where the Khorns intersect) from the wall for best results, or can you sit further back?

 

Also, I have experimented with my Klipsch RF-62 II in the corners and it basically sucks. PWK suggested in a 1960s Dope from Hope that all speakers should be corner loaded, was he saying that based off of what was out at the time? I hear a speaker way over to the right, and one way to the left, and phantom center. I'm guessing that the Klipschorn has some sort of way of overcoming this, how? 

 

Can you get away with having an entertainment center between the two Khorns, or is this a no-no?

[twistedcrankcammer]

As long as you have at least 4-5 unobstructed feet on both sides of both Klipschorns then no, it will not matter if you have your equipment in between them. Also a lot of Klipschorn users like to sit just before or at the crossing point, but I feel this is wrong. I always liked to sit just slightly behind or about 2 or so feet behind as I feel this gives a much larger sweet spot and have read material to this effect as well. So 11 or 12 feet back on an 18' wall for me. And no, PWK ment ALL speakers as it enhances Bass output, but also remember that speakers of that period did not have overwhelming Bass.

 

[ATLAudio]

8 minutes ago, twistedcrankcammer said:

As long as you have at least 4-5 unobstructed feet on both sides of both Klipschorns then no, it will not matter if you have your equipment in between them. Also a lot of Klipschorn users like to sit just before or at the crossing point, but I feel this is wrong. I always liked to sit just slightly behind or about 2 or so feet behind as I feel this gives a much larger sweet spot and have read material to this effect as well. So 11 or 12 feet back on an 18' wall for me. And no, PWK ment ALL speakers as it enhances Bass output, but also remember that speakers of that period did not have overwhelming Bass.

 

 

But, like I was saying, my RF 62 II towers sound like crap in the corners, imaging and sound stage gets lost. I assume that the Khorns wouldn't, but why? 

[twistedcrankcammer]

Sorry, don't know, and have never owned RF-62II, but Klipschorns love about 20 feet between them. 

[twistedcrankcammer]

2 minutes ago, ATLAudio said:

But, like I was saying, my RF 62 II towers sound like crap in the corners, imaging and sound stage gets lost. I assume that the Khorns wouldn't, but why? 

 

 

Try contacting member "Chief Bone-Head" as he could surely answer that question or help you.

 

Roger

[garyrc]

17 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Assuming you have an 18' wall, do you have to sit 9' away (where the Khorns intersect) from the wall for best results, or can you sit further back?

 

Also, I have experimented with my Klipsch RF-62 II in the corners and it basically sucks. PWK suggested in a 1960s Dope from Hope that all speakers should be corner loaded, was he saying that based off of what was out at the time? I hear a speaker way over to the right, and one way to the left, and phantom center. I'm guessing that the Klipschorn has some sort of way of overcoming this, how? 

 

Can you get away with having an entertainment center between the two Khorns, or is this a no-no?

When you get Klipschorns, push them all the way into the corner.  If you get used ones, make sure they have a rubber wall seal of some kind. 

 

They may be best if they have a full 5 feet of unobstructed wall on each side, according to one review.

 

To improve imaging, put absorbing pads on the each wall just in front of the Khorns starting where a yard stick pressed flat against the front of the midrange and tweeter section (the "Top Hat") would touch the wall, and continuing into the room for 2 feet.  This only needs to be at the level of the top hat -- it is to absorb early reflections from the mid and tweet, since they're so close to the corner.  In my layout, I use 2 2'x2' pads to make an absorbing pad 4 feet high, centered opposite the middle of the top hat, but I'm told one this tall is not necessary.  I think I remember that Klipsch's Chief Engineer Roy Delgado ("Chief Bonehead" on the forum) told Chris A that it is best if nothing is between the Khorns.  The advice in this paragraph comes from, or through, Chris A.  Look up his thread on Corner Horn Acoustics.

 

Then, stand at the back of the room, dead center, and slowly walk toward the Khorn wall.  Note the places where the imaging, and other important things (tonality, bass, etc) are the best.  Do this with several pieces of music -- recordings vary widely in their imaging, depending on type of mic placement, etc.  Then pick one of your best imaging places as your tentative main listening position.  If you listen alone, you might want a fairly close seat, dead center between the Khorns, if one of your best spots, found via the technique above, is close to the Khorns.  If you listen with others, you may want to listen farther away.   My Khorns, in a 16.75' wide room, 13.5' apart from tweeter center to tweeter center, sound great from about 8' from the intertweeter line to about 23' from the intertweeter line.  We usually listen to them at about 12' from the intertweeter line. 

 

I'd put absorbing pads at the first reflection points, as well ( where you can see a reflection of the speaker from the main listening position in a mirror moved along flat against the wall -- at that spot put an absorbing pad where the mirror was).  I'd also have a thick carpet on the floor, at least at the first reflection point on the floor.  If your ceiling is less than 8.5 feet high, you my want to consider an absorber at the first reflection point on the ceiling.  But don't over damp.  Few things sound worse than a too dead room.  I use diffusers and have some diffusing bookshelves, books, pottery, etc.

 

Khorns were designed to use the corner.  I believe it is true that any speaker will gain overall bass in the corner, although some people claim that it will activate room modes a little more.  But that's why you strive select your listening position(s) carefully, and use Audyssey or similar.  Some people use tuned bass traps, but I've never needed them.  Corner placement will also increase headroom, at least in the bass, with any speaker.  A speaker located away from the walls, well out into the room, as some audiophiles advocate will be more efficient (in the bass) in a corner.  As PWK said, it would be like multiplying your amplifier power by 4 (at least in the bass).  In your case, RF62 IIs, may continue to suck in the corners, but do try them with the room changes discussed above, even though they are not Khorns.

 

In the right room, Khorns can trigger your musical Gestalt as few speakers can, as J Gordon Holt, the creator of Stereophile reported.  At a recent Klipsch Gathering ( I think two years ago) the group directly compared, in the same room,  the sound of Khorns, RF7s(IIs?), and Palladium, and the majority preferred Khorns.   My Khorns can produce imaging from excellent to pretty bad, depending on the recording.  I have a center channel, basically for movies only, that uses the same speakers that are in the Khorns, but I frequently turn it off for music (i.e., I select 2 channel stereo) because the imaging is better with just the Khorns.  With some recordings, that's not true, so I try music with both.  Five channel SACD is often great.  All that being said, I don't value imaging very highly compared to low distortion, clean extreme dynamics and detailed micro-dynamics, and a bunch of other things that are sometimes called "tonality," "musiality," "air," etc.

 

You might want to consider Jubilees, the corner horn PWK and Roy Delgado designed as a replacement for the Khorn.  It has a huge mid/tweet horn, so it doesn't look great in most living rooms (I think it's fine), and therefore never became too popular.  There are several different configurations,  Chris A has written about his set-up, including Jubilees.  He has a picture of them on his page.

 

EDIT:  I knew something was bothering me.   The conventional sweet spot for a single listener (a starting point for experimentation) would be at the vertex of an equilateral triangle which has the other vertices of the equilateral triangle at at the center of the front grille cloth of each top hat, i.e., at the front each Khorn tweeter, which would also be in a vertical line with the center of the midrange horn mouth.  This would mean that the other vertex of this triangle (the main listening position) would be where the lines from the Khorns intersect.  I may be wrong, but if you have an 18 foot wide wall, this would not be "9 feet away from the wall," but 12.77 feet from the intertweeter line (which is probably what counts) and about 14.4 feet from the wall.  So, you can probably sit at least 5.4 feet farther back than you thought.  Here's why:  The distance from the center of a Khorn front grille to the side wall is about 1.625 feet.  18 feet - (2)(1.625 feet) = 14.75 feet.  So, each side of the equilateral triangle would be 14.75 feet.  The altitude of the triangle forms two right triangles inside your equilateral triangle.  According to Pythagoras (when he wasn't running from the archers while avoiding stepping on the beans) that altitude would be 12.77 feet, the distance between the intertweeter line and the main listening position.

 

To simulate imaging in corner placement with Khorns, using your RF 62 iis, you might be better off placing the front of their mid/tweeters 1.625 feet from each side wall of the corner, and sit 12.77 feet back from the intertweeter line..  There might not be quite as much bass, but the imaging test may be more accurate.

 

Good luck!

[willland]

18 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

But, like I was saying, my RF 62 II towers sound like crap in the corners, imaging and sound stage gets lost.

 

18 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

I hear a speaker way over to the right, and one way to the left, and phantom center.

Funny you say that.  I once had my RF-63's dead in the corners pulled away about 12" and toed in toward my ears in my primary listening spot.  Great for multichannel music, okay for stereo music, not so great for HT.  I later moved them about 2.75ft off the left/right walls and toed them in to where they intersect about 6" behind my ears and the difference was astounding.  Huge stage, pinpoint imaging, close to 3-dimensional as I have ever had them.

 

Bill

[ATLAudio]

11 hours ago, willland said:

 

Funny you say that.  I once had my RF-63's dead in the corners pulled away about 12" and toed in toward my ears in my primary listening spot.  Great for multichannel music, okay for stereo music, not so great for HT.  I later moved them about 2.75ft off the left/right walls and toed them in to where they intersect about 6" behind my ears and the difference was astounding.  Huge stage, pinpoint imaging, close to 3-dimensional as I have ever had them.

 

Bill

 

The placement, as you described, is the best for stereo imaging. The Reference I manual suggested this exact placement IIRC.

 

Also which is nearly just as good, is keeping the speakers at the same place as above, but swinging them at a 45 deg angle where they intersect about 2-3' in front of you. You do lose some depth of sound stage, but sitting off to the side is easier.

 

I'm just curious as to what is the magic potion in Klipschorns that they can project sound out of their corners. I don't doubt there's an answer. 

[HDBRbuilder]

19 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

I'm just curious as to what is the magic potion in Klipschorns that they can project sound out of their corners. I don't doubt there's an answer.

The FOLDED bass horn of the K-horn is a bifurcated pathway, from just in front of the compression slot on the woofer motorboard, onward.  The FINAL flare of that bifurcated bass horn LENS comes around both sides of the bass bin, and it depends on the walls (and floor) to COMPLETE that lens.  If the K-horns are earlier models which do NOT have the sides enclosed, then they either need to be put into a corner, OR put into a false corner, OR have the sides enclosed.  The walls on either side of the K-horn in the corner actually perform this task better if they extend about two feet PAST the front plane of the speaker...or further.

[soundbound]

I did what's in this thread: Nice K-horn Restoration

 

[garyrc]

On 11/16/2016 at 1:45 PM, ATLAudio said:

The placement, as you described, is the best for stereo imaging. The Reference I manual suggested this exact placement IIRC.

 

Also which is nearly just as good, is keeping the speakers at the same place as above, but swinging them at a 45 deg angle where they intersect about 2-3' in front of you. You do lose some depth of sound stage, but sitting off to the side is easier.

 

I'm just curious as to what is the magic potion in Klipschorns that they can project sound out of their corners. I don't doubt there's an answer. 

I would think that the frequencies produced by the Khorns' mid drivers/horns, and tweeters would be more important for good imaging than the frequencies below 400/450 (depending on the model/year) that are handled by the bass bin.  That may be why the placement of absorbing pads, as detailed in my post, about 5 posts ago, and in Chris A's great thread on corner horns, may be helpful.  I am also curious if the imaging of your RF 62 IIs, when placed in a corner, would be better if you hung some blankets (temporarily) to the sides of the mid/high horns (as described in my post). 

 

As to the magic potion, it my be partly because the front of the center of the  Khorn Top Hat is about 2.33 feet out from vertex of the corner, and 1.63 feet from the each side wall, whereas your RF 62 iis may be closer to all of the above, if they are pushed all the way into the corner.  That's just a guess, but try them in that position.  I don't know if the Khorn's mid and high horns have greater horizontal directivity than those of the RF 62 IIs.

 

I once heard Khorns in a store about 40 feet wide, from about 30 feet away, with no acoustical treatment other than some throw rugs on the floor, and a score of other expensive speakers between them, adjusted for equal SPL.  Some of the other speakers stuck out quite a ways, and the ones nearest to the Khorns were closer than 4 feet from the corner, both "no nos."  I switched from one to another repeatedly.  Each speaker had its strong points, but the Khorns were far and away the best.  There was no physical center channel.  I'm not usually impressed by imaging, but talk about imaging!  The instruments were spread across the whole expanse beautifully.  This was true from the approx. 30 foot distance, and from a few other distances I tried, closer and farther away.  There was a very high ceiling.  One of the pieces of test music was Terpsichore:: Le Bourree XXXII by Praetorius on DG'S Archive ARC73153.  The serpent, especially,  sounded both more detailed and with more of a bass undertone to the delightfully melodious, but buzzy, serpent sound than with the other speakers --- and you could point to it with one finger, as physicians say.  The room, whether by co-incidence or design, is so, so important with Khorns.  Mine, in my room, sound extremely good, but not that good!

[Chris A]

On 11/15/2016 at 9:29 AM, ATLAudio said:

But, like I was saying, my RF 62 II towers sound like crap in the corners, imaging and sound stage gets lost. I assume that the Khorns wouldn't, but why? 

Because Khorns were set up to be in corners, they sound good there.  They have different midrange coverage angles, bass bin characteristics (fully horn loaded), and balancing networks than the RF62-IIs. 

 

When you move a loudspeaker close to a wall or a corner, the bass response changes and more importantly, the midrange sound changes due to increased early reflections from adjacent walls.  This is the reason why the imaging and soundstage disappear. 

 

If you add a 2' x 2' absorption pads on the walls closest to the midrange horn mouths of your RF62s, their imaging and soundstage will reappear.  You'll have to "turn down" and rebalance their bass performance a bit due to their increased performance in corners. The bass performance increase was discussed in detail by PWK, but the midrange early reflection change wasn't (IIRC). 

 

Chris

[J M O N]

On 11/15/2016 at 6:59 PM, garyrc said:

If you get used ones, make sure they have a rubber wall seal of some kind. 

The older ones did not come with a rubber seal from the factory.  Don't reject a set for this reason alone.  You can use pipe insulation if needed, but I ran my '78 Khorns without anything for years and still got great sound.

[HDBRbuilder]

Some of the problems in K-horn top-end horn directivity TOWARDS the listener could be solved by a top-hat modification, which would allow for the motorboard in that section to be adjusted off center-line from a bisection of the corner the bass bin is shoved into.  IOW, the motorboard the mid horn and tweeter are mounted to would be able to rotate left or right a bit.  Just think of something like a lazy susan mounting inside the top-hat section, which would allow for this.  This would entail applications of solutions to possible problems arising from NON-SOLID mounting of the motorboard, such as some kind of locking system which would hold the motorboard firmly for stabilization, once it was directed to the point of aim.

 

I have toyed with this concept, and may actually work something like this up after I get my cabinet shop set up upon retirement.  My plan would allow the top-hat itself to actually enclose the contraption behind the grille...that way the visual aesthetics of the COMPLETE K-horn unit will not be affected.  The key to this would be to ensure a solid mounting, which rotates, and when rotated can be locked solidly into place, but can ALSO be unlocked, as necessary, to change the point of aim.  I well understand that the rotation will be limited to either side off-axis...but just a few degrees to either side would satisfy me.

 

Since the motorboard is actually what the grille cloth is mounted to, a different mounting surface could be used for that, which would leave the appearance the same as it currently is.  Something THINNER...for mounting the grille cloth would be best, with enough distance between the grille and the face of the motorboard to allow clearance for a rotation of the motorboard behind the grille of a few degrees to either side.

 

I have also been thinking about a bit of DOWNWARD rotation of the motorboard being figured into the design.

 

As far as I am PERSONALLY concerned, there would be no need for the bass horn to really need to be directed anywhere...since so much of its frequency output is picked up by body mass instead of actually being picked up by the ears....isn't it funny how the brain makes you THINK it is your EARS picking up those low frequencies?...when it is actually body mass doing it?  Yes, even HEADPHONES work this way for low frequencies!  After all...as PWK used to say..."We live in the midrange".

[soundbound]

   HDBRbuilder,

 

Here's what I did in this thread to address what you just wrote about. Click on this link to read about it - Nice K-horn Restoration.

 

[ATLAudio]

On 11/17/2016 at 9:48 PM, Chris A said:

Because Khorns were set up to be in corners, they sound good there.  They have different midrange coverage angles, bass bin characteristics (fully horn loaded), and balancing networks than the RF62-IIs. 

 

When you move a loudspeaker close to a wall or a corner, the bass response changes and more importantly, the midrange sound changes due to increased early reflections from adjacent walls.  This is the reason why the imaging and soundstage disappear. 

 

If you add a 2' x 2' absorption pads on the walls closest to the midrange horn mouths of your RF62s, their imaging and soundstage will reappear.  You'll have to "turn down" and rebalance their bass performance a bit due to their increased performance in corners. The bass performance increase was discussed in detail by PWK, but the midrange early reflection change wasn't (IIRC). 

 

Chris

I was wondering what approach absorption would work, if any. I'll have to try this.

 

Also, how can I get klipschorns like yours?

[Chris A]

4 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Also, how can I get klipschorns like yours?

If you're referring to the Klipschorn Jubilees that you see in the corners of the room in my profile, just email roy.delgado@klipsch.com for the particulars of the home version of this loudspeaker (two-way).  He also goes by "Chief Bonehead" on this forum.

 

The guy that can quote prices and to order from is Spencer Chao <spencer.chao@cinequip.com> .  All prices include delivery to your doorstep.  There are a couple of options available--one for bass bin veneer and another for HF compression driver brand/model number.  The active crossover settings are available on this site, as well as schematics for passive crossovers...I recommend an active crossover. 

 

Jubilees come up rarely for resale on this site, but if you're very patient...

 

Chris

[Chris A]

4 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

I was wondering what approach absorption would work, if any. I'll have to try this.

I use Auralex Sonofiber panels/squares, but there are other manufacturers. You can also use mineral wool.  Even heavy curtain material will work well. For a trial, you can pin up blankets, quilts, or comforters.  "T" pins work well for attaching to the walls. 

 

Chris

[HDBRbuilder]

On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 0:41 PM, soundbound said:

   HDBRbuilder,

 

Here's what I did in this thread to address what you just wrote about. Click on this link to read about it - Nice K-horn Restoration.

 

11 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

 

That would be the simple fix, but what I have in mind is to RETAIN the aesthetics of the original K-horn while being able to adjust directivity of the horn lenses within the tophat.

[HDBRbuilder]

When comparing different speakers and their relationships to results of putting them into corners, keep in mind that there is a world of difference between FULLY horn-loaded speakers and PARTIALLY horn-loaded speakers...and non-horn-loaded speakers.  There is also a world of difference between speakers which have rearward-firing drivers (and drones) and those which do NOT have anything rearward-firing.  The final caveat is whether the speaker was DESIGNED to be in corners, or was designed to stand along a flat wall....or is recommended for either.

 

HORNS have almost all of the sonic energy being DIRECTED forward, literally being FUNNELED forward, whereas CONE DRIVERS don't.  That is why you can stand behind, for example, an MCM 1900 system when it is cranking, and carry on a normal conversation, whereas if you were standing in front of it you could scream to your heart's content and still not be heard by someone standing right in front of you.  Horn energy goes FORWARD.  Cone energy tends to go outward...ie, wider dispersion...with loss of efficiency due to more width of dispersion.

 

So, keep that in mind when you are talking about reflections and such from adjacent walls when speakers are put into corners.

 

If your speakers have partial horn-loading, combined with cone-loading AND bass porting, there are many considerations which have to be taken for corner placement, whereas for partial horn-loading of something like a Heresy, or Cornwall....both of which are horn-loaded in the high and mid ranges, but cone-loaded for the bottom-end (with the Cornwall also being ported), the placement will be different than for partial-horn-loading in speakers whose cone drivers ALSO reach up well into the midrange.

 

People ask a number of questions about placement, but the best answer is just to "let your ears decide".

 

The GOAL of most loudspeaker designers has generally HISTORICALLY been to provide a loudspeaker which can ACCURATELY produce the full range of the audible spectrum, and can DO THAT using a ONE-WAY speaker.  PWK came out with the K-horn system, which was able to pretty-much do that with a THREE-WAY speaker, fully-horn-loaded, but which could be put into a corner, so that it did not take up to much floor space in the room (if the bass horn was not folded, it would take up floor space of 32 feet out of each corner in order to produce an UN-CLIPPED 32hz sound-wave).  His goal for the Jubilee was to do what the K-horn did, but do it even better, using a TWO-WAY speaker.  IOW, he was doing his best to approach the HISTORICAL goal of getting down to just ONE POINT OF ORIGIN (one-way system) for the full musical spectrum, by "creeping up to that historical goal" by taking it from a three-way to a two-way fully horn-loaded system....from THREE points of origin, to TWO points of origin...and have it fit into a room in a house...while taking up minimum floor-space.