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wvu80

Khorn Upgrade Thread

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If I may add a very cheap suggestion.   Like mentioned earlier in thread, spend $50 on a 3/4 sheet of plywood and enclose them or build false walls. Enclosing is so simple, doesn't harm the cabs or even put screws in them, you don't have 300lbs of false corners or 5 odd sheets of ply to build the case walls. Your corners are almost as bad as mine were and doing this will make the K's get much closer in doing what they were intended to do and get rid of the thin, uncompleted and disrupted, bloaty upper bottom end. 

 

I threw darts at a board in the beginning of modding my K's. I have spent a lot trying this and that from not so cheap items as a couple of the old timers (some still here, some not) that were along for the ride. it was a good learn and I have recouped some of the money for my errors.   

 

Some things I found out along the way:

 

The tried and true K-55 is that good and remarkably better with a larger horn. Sure there are better drivers, but save that for putting the cherry on top later on.  Fill 3/4 of that top hat with a wood mid. You will have much more accuracy and a better small room listening experience that to my ears can even rival Jubs equipped with TADS. Yes, I said that, and I have been humbled by the Jubs appearance, but not with their two way sound.

 

Im also a fan of the K-77, even with some complaining of its buzz, and I have tried a couple of the favorites mentioned here and have sold them all now. The 55 and 77 just seem to match with my ears over  a couple of others. Tweeter are totally subjective and bumping them or cutting them even 2-3 db changes the entire presentation of the speaker.

 

Don't count on changing your X-over point to save the day or even making it to your liking. Is it an improvement adding more work for your tweeter and steeling the upper goodness of the K-55 ? Should a higher female vocal be primarily produced through a tweeter?

 

Concentrate on improving the mid output, its the most critical part in music and nothing is more awe inspiring than hearing a huge improvement in vocal clarity from reduced compression, added imaging, much larger sweet spot, cleaner decay, etc. etc.  

 

Some of my driver suggestions are subjective to my ears, but don't spend a lot of items that change the sound, but down really make an improvement from a flawed placement.  I wish you were closer, I could demonstrate a few things for you that I think would put you on my final path instead of doing what I did in the beginning. 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/7/2017 at 11:54 AM, Max2 said:

If I may add a very cheap suggestion.  

Always:)

 

Like mentioned earlier in thread, spend $50 on a 3/4 sheet of plywood and enclose them or build false walls.

I've seen threads on that.  I think I would like to pursue enclosing the Khorns at a later time.

 

,,,,Your corners are almost as bad as mine were and doing this will make the K's get much closer in doing what they were intended to do and get rid of the thin, uncompleted and disrupted, bloaty upper bottom end. 

I haven't heard the term "bloaty" in this context but it does describe what I am hearing.  I don't like making changes for general purposes, I like to make changes mainly to minimize specific problems, and I do hear what you are describing.

 

Quote

Some things I found out along the way:

 

The tried and true K-55 is that good and remarkably better with a larger horn. Sure there are better drivers, but save that for putting the cherry on top later on.  Fill 3/4 of that top hat with a wood mid. You will have much more accuracy and a better small room listening experience that to my ears can even rival Jubs equipped with TADS. Yes, I said that, and I have been humbled by the Jubs appearance, but not with their two way sound.

That will certainly be a project for another time.  And for the record, I am a fan of 2-ways, not so much the 3-ways.

 

Im also a fan of the K-77, even with some complaining of its buzz, and I have tried a couple of the favorites mentioned here and have sold them all now. The 55 and 77 just seem to match with my ears over  a couple of others. Tweeter are totally subjective and bumping them or cutting them even 2-3 db changes the entire presentation of the speaker.

The SEOS and CD driver I'm using is vastly better than the K-77.  At first I thought the K-77 was not getting enough juice due to the old worn out XO but the new SEOS horn is playing through the same XO with much more acoustic energy and clarity.

 

Don't count on changing your X-over point to save the day or even making it to your liking. Is it an improvement adding more work for your tweeter and steeling the upper goodness of the K-55 ? Should a higher female vocal be primarily produced through a tweeter?

I have the K-55-V.  It has a known deficit in the 4500 to 6000 range.  The K-55-M address that problem.  I am using the A/4500 specifically to address that, and the SEOS can easily dig down into the 4500 range and is smooth up to aboutr 18 KHz.  It can cross at 1000 Hz if called upon.

 

Concentrate on improving the mid output, its the most critical part in music and nothing is more awe inspiring than hearing a huge improvement in vocal clarity from reduced compression, added imaging, much larger sweet spot, cleaner decay, etc. etc.  

 

 I wish you were closer, I could demonstrate a few things for you that I think would put you on my final path instead of doing what I did in the beginning. 

 

Thank you for the offer.  I like to go to school on what others have done so I don't have to re-invent the wheel.  So far I feel like I'm off to a good start to better sound, with a little help from my friends.

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

I haven't heard the term "bloaty" in this context but it does describe what I am hearing.  I don't like making changes for general purposes, I like to make changes mainly to minimize specific problems, and I do hear what you are describing.

 

Thank you for the offer.  I like to go to school on what others have done so I don't have to re-invent the wheel.  So far I feel like I'm off to a good start to better sound, with a little help from my friends.

 

There is a low cycle hump with all the K-horn's. Without having them sealed in corners you have no low end extension to speak of and basically a box that is peaking in 150-200hz range depending on room.  It was awful in my room and basically left the K's unusable except in the mid 80 db range where the woofer wouldn't even produce much.  My La Scalas were much more effective in my room before I enclosed the K's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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my only upgrade to my 69's is from Type A to Dean's ALK's

i did move and put them in a room that is 20x34

 

EDIT - on 1/12/17 i bought and installed a set of soldered terminal K-55V's

 

 

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If unsure replace one thing at a time to make sure you are moving in the right direction.

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Dave,

Aligning the mid and tweeter drivers was a huge, very huge improvement on my LaScalas. The two drivers diaphragms need to be in rather close alignment in the vertical plane (I think Chris A. mentions about 1/4 inch). I tried different materials on top of the cabs but couldn't really hear a difference. Without measuring, it's hard to be exact, but everything will really snap into place, have a better focus.

 

Bruce

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Thanks for the heads up on that Bruce.

 

I am able to snug those Khorns tightly into corners but they are not perfect corners relative to MLP.  I did hear a dramatic difference in placing my SEOS horn on the tophat and moving it around.  It really reduced that "cave echo" sound somewhat and I feel there is more improvement to be had, so I'd like some more guidance on that.

 

I got my A/4500 XO's on Saturday and got them swapped in.  I'll have some comments and pics later.

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Here is an edited (for clarity and brevity) PM between wdecho and myself, printed with his permission:

 

wdecho:  Hey there! How's it going with the new crossovers? 

 

Dave:  I've been listening critically a few times, and a lot of TV watching.  There is a huge echo problem with Khorns that seems to be better since I put an external tweeter/SEOS horn on the tophat.  I might describe it as that "shouty" sound others have described.  I find it very annoying.

 

Put your hands together like a megaphone at a football game.  Then move your hands apart.  The closed or small apature is what the Klipsch sounds like.  The wider opening with no echo is what the SEOS sounds like.

 

Hmm, is the shouty problem with the old tweeter and new crossover? Old tweeter and old crossover? New tweeter and old crossovers? I'm assuming u have the k77 round alnico tweeters? 

 

New SEOS, new A/4500.  I have the round K-77.  It has been shouty since day 1, stock everywhere.   With the Crites A/4500 and SEOS on top, it is still shouty, maybe less so, not sure.

 

With the new SEOS and Denovo DNA-360 there is a LOT more acoustical content from the tweeter, like a midrange.  Before changes the tweeter would make some odds and ends high pitched sounds, like cymbals overtones.  The w/ A/4500 SEOS actually sounds like a full midrange and includes the highest frequencies to 19 Khz.  It is much louder than the K-77 with a very full sound.

 

You had or still have Lascalas right? They didn't sound shouty to your ears? I'm just curious if you'd prefer the K400 midrange horn padded down a little. I don't necessarily think the K400 mid-horn is to blame. I think there will be solutions to get rid of the shouting!

 

No La Scalas now.  I had them for maybe a month then sold them to fund the Scalas. 

 

I wasn't impressed with them (very dull) and I am very sure that was because they were 35 years old and unmolested.  I am also sure I didn't have the LS's set up properly in my living room.  They had a lot more in the tank than what I could get out of them in the short time I had them.  I don't remember the LS being shouty.

 

It sounds a like we both prefer higher-extending, more detailed tweeters over the older Alnico K77.

 

Yes, agree.  I like to hear more detailed articulate sound over smooth.  Think bright trumpet overtones

 

I preferred the stock K77M square tweeters a little more than the older round ones, after hearing both. The Crites tweeters are further improvements, but I had to remove the ferrofluid from mine to get a little more detail at the expense of extreme power handling.

 

I think your new tweeters are a step in the right direction, but perhaps they need padded down also? I also angled my Khorn top hats down a little to face the listener better. That involved unbolting the tops and sliding some material underneath to angle them down. This was due to room constraints, where I was forced to listen more closely than optimal. I still wonder about your room and possible reflections. I placed some rugs on top of mine to absorb as well as protect them from our cats. 

/end PM. 

 

I have been doing a lot of casual listening (TV) and some critical listening.  Things have definitely changed.  I'll stop here.  -Dave

 

 

 

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Jumping in a bit here. I picked up my Khorns last Friday and when I got them in the LR I found out quickly that false corners were not going to work in my case as I had minimal side to side distance and the 'walls' would move them even closer. I am going with the aforementioned back enclosure. I have little to choose from so I picked up a sheet of 3/4" oak plywood and had Lows cut it in two 48" pieces and then rip 16" widths. I used a skill saw to cut the pieces to length and then just touched the vertical edges with 45* table saw to make the angles but not remove any width. They fit perfectly. I want some thin rubber gasket material to cover the edges of the enclosure plywood to seal and not mar the original work or snag the grill cloth. Will paint black this weekend and try my hand at drilling holes thru the enclosures to exactly mate up with center of existing grill and tail board bracing. 

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On 1/18/2017 at 3:41 PM, USNRET said:

Jumping in a bit here. I picked up my Khorns last Friday and when I got them in the LR I found out quickly that false corners were not going to work in my case...(respectful Snip!)

No problem jumping in here.  I'm interested how your enclosed backs worked for you.  You mentioned you wanted to use a thin rubber gasket seal, I'd like to hear about that as well.

 

It's all related, all good.

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My Klipschorns are backed up with solid core door slabs, even in the good square room corners. Better bass response than you get from typical hollow wall construction. Easy to screw two sawed off doors together and they just sit in the corner. No mods to the speakers. Inexpensive if you can find some used doors from an office remodel job.

 

IMG_3161.JPG

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^^ Door mod is great idea. I am trying to save every inch of width between speakers that I can. I am thinking that the tape or gasket material along the sides and top will protect against chaffing where the plywood strikes
 

Montage.JPG

Screw location.JPG

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Rather than just screws would it be better to embed a nut in the braces instead. I don't suppose I will be taking them on and off but the holes will wear.

Giff nut.JPG

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30 years ago I measured my DIY klipsch corner horns. In My first apartment I had proper concrete corners (walls floor and ceiling. In the next one of the walls was à light drywall that was à 6dB loss across the bass below 100 Hz or so. 

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