powdermnky007 Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Not the most knowledgeble here, but learning alot as i've never heard (or even seen) a tube amp so i have no standards to compare to (except my sony 100 watt BLAH!! I'm trying to figure out what kind of volume you get out of different amps. how would these following VOLUMES compare to one another. we all know tubes and especially SET is hands down better than anything solid state. Also curious how distortion becomes an issue when having the rig cranked up (anything past 12 o' clock) 3 watts SET VS. 7 - 10 watts normal tube amp VS. 30 watt jolida (tube preamp + mosfet amp) VS. sony 100 watt normal reciever (i.e. circuit city) how would these volume levels compare? I know 30 watts, is not 30 watts, is not 30 watts. You have solid state 30 watts, then 30 watts solid state high current, big difference there. I'm not doubting that you cannot get a loud volume out of a 3 or 7-10 watts, but it just doesn't seem feasible. Unless there is some extra variable coming into the equation with the different typs of tube setups. Such as ULTRA high current, heh. I want the awesome sound quality (e.g. tubes) but i like to have music loud. Not rock concert loud, but a decent volume... you guys know what i mean (i have rf-5's for your knowledge ~99 db sensivity) Because i know the closer you get to the maximum output of an amp the more distorted it becomes. I read in class A the amps work full force all the time, so i'm assuming as the volume gets cranked (on preamp) that it would be the preamp distorting and not the amp. how exactly does that work. And i see that the distortion on tube amps are much higher. Such as <3% tubes as compared to <.05 on solid state. I know all here have sensitive ears, so i'm also wondering why that distortion seems not to come into effect. Thanks guys, i know i have lots of questions, lol!! -justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Yes - a lot off questions - and it is a bit difficult to answer them all. I suppose the best place to start is how watts translate into db. The basics are that for every 3dB jump in volume you need to double the power. Starting with your speakers as the basis (99 dB/w/m): 99 dB - 1 watt 102 dB - 2 watts 105 dB - 4 watts 108 dB - 8 watts 111 dB - 16 watts 114 dB - 32 watts 117 dB - 64 watts 120 dB - 128 watts From memory your speakers in common with most Klipsch models can handle upto 100 watts continuous / 400 watts peak. Therefore the maximum continuous volume your system is capable of producing is theoretically about 118-119 dB which is ear damagingly loud for exposures beyond about 10 minutes. I should add that these are the ratings in an anechoic chamber at a distance of 1 metre. For every metre further away you can reduce the dB by 6. Therefore if you are sitting 3 metres from your speakers with 32 watts comming from your amp you should be listening to music at something around 102 dB or thereabouts. In my language 102 dB is plenty loud - far louder in fact than I would ever listen to music. The highest figure (continuous) in my listening position I use is about 90dB and then only when the wife and baby are out and only for rock music. (Note - there are others on this forum that will laugh out loud at that figure but I am keen on retaining my hearing for the foreseeable future and imho they are taking a risk). As most of my listening is done at about 84 dB, even taking into account I am 3 metres from my speakers you can see that with your speakers I will be running at 96 dB from a distance of 1 metre or 0.1 watts from the amp. This is where the advantage of tubes comes in. At outputs of less than 1 watt it is generally accepted that tubes are less distorting than SS amplification. The issue is not that a 3 watt tube amp will play louder than a 3 watt SS amp (if such a thing existed) but that for the majority of normal listening the tube amp will suffer less distortion that the SS amp. I should add that some makes are notorious for over-stating their outputs. Just because a given make of receiver is declared to be 100 watts does not mean that it actually is. There appear to be a variety of tricks the manufacturers use to make these numbers look bigger as watts sell amps. In summary a 3 watt tube amp will not play louder than a genuine say 30 to 70 watt SS amp. At 104 dB it will probably clip like the devil on the peaks, but, at levels of, say 95 dB it should sound gloriously better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 With my Lascala and HH Scott combo which is a 20 Watt RMS amp. I have this setup run through some watt meters. When I'm really feeling froggy I play it loud like concert levels. This requires about 6 to 8 watts average and may pick at around 20 watts. This will produce near 106db at my listening position that is setup in a 9' triagle(speakers 9' apart and pointed dead at my head 9' from my head. I get absolutely no noticeable destortion. It plays with absolute authority !! Now mind you I have done extensive tweaks to this amp equalizing everything in it down to every single resistor matched circuit to circuit. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Good post maxg Justin, I feel you will need something more powerful than the pure tubes you have seen. Except Margules ones (granted Im not an expert like mobile) the other two tubes amps I have listened are shy on the bass. Reading your post I would go for the maximum power you can buy. If you buy it an is more than you need you can always hear the amp at less volume. But if you go for a less watts amp and you need power and it is not there, you will feel kind of sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Another general rule: 1 tube watt = 2 to 3 SS. watts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Manuel brings up a good point. I believe the power output ratings are at 1000Hz, unless I'm mistaken. I'm sure to be corrected, so fire away. If solid bass (by that I would mean frequencies below 160Hz) is an issue, then specifications will not reveal the details. I do not know if the progression (3dB per doubling of power) applies for all frequencies, or only the 1Khz mentioned above. It does seem reasonable to assume that it takes much more acoustic power to generate palpable bass waves than it would take for tiny high frequency waves. Given that, the Klipschorn woofer is capable of producing some very realistic bass from my 8 watt tube amp. Or so I thought. I had a friend over last weekend and played an excerpt from "Firebird" at the Minnesota Orchestra Hall. The tympanies are explosively loud in this particular passage. One I always thought my stereo did admirably well. My friend winced and said the amps were clipping on the drums, and suggested the best improvement for my stereo would be to bi-amp the speakers, with the 8 watt amps feeding mid and highs, and some monster SS amp feeding the woofer. Cognitive dissonance is a terrible thing, but I've finally come to terms with his indictment. Someday perhaps I will own a 100 watt OTL amp, but not until I make that second million dollars (gave up on the first). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Lordy, Bey! Ummmmm..... I dont know about some of the above, even from ole "Manuel Margules." btw, you will recoil in horror at the sound of 95% of all OTL amps! Talk about DETAIL with a capital D! Holy no Body and Sterile, almost the antithesis of 300B sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powdermnky007 Posted October 10, 2002 Author Share Posted October 10, 2002 First off i want to say thanks for all the input and once again i have been set straight by the elders of the 2 channel forum!! (i have seen the light, lmao). My listening area is very small 2.5 meters or so from the speakers, so I DEFENITLY don't need a high powered amp. How would volume levels compare between a joLida integrated hybrid (tube preamp + 30 watt mosfet amp) and say a 20 watt tube amp (read scott - eico). My guess is that the pure tube amp would knock out the joLida in volume (and destroy in fidelity). Like mentioned above 1 tube watt = 2 or 3 SS watts. The Mosfets in the joLida being SS (are they high current?). Thanks again -justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Im sure no one is into these amps, so far its obvious, but my older Conrad Johnson 1985 MV-50 rocks! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 With my Scott 299 (14w/ch), Dual CS-5000 and modified La Scala's (ALK's and Altec 511B horns), I can listen with the volume at 6 - 6.5 and am registering 100 - 105db, and it is clean as a whistle. Not sure how much power it's putting out but my speakers are 12' apart and I am 12' away from them. BTW, that is plenty loud enough to boot. I think when I am ready to go the SET route, 3 watts will be plenty for me... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Mike, Don't want to correct you but I'll give you a free upgrade your amp is more like 17 to 20 watts a channel RMS. That's no charge LOL !!!! I would bet at the volume your at your using about 10 watts average with maybe some higher peaks. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Audioreality---"Another general rule: 1 tube watt = 2 to 3 SS. watts." Where did you come up with that assertion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 "1 tube watt = 2 to 3 solid state watts!" "Class A watts are much more powerful than class B watts!" "Don't put that metal tape in any of OUR tape decks. A guy did that once, and it destroyed the heads!" "A 100 watt amplifier is a LOT more powerful than a 100 watt receiver because it's not wasting power running all of the other things that are inside a receiver!" All courtesy Tech HiFi, Fairfield Connecticut and New Haven Connecticut, circa 1975 / 1977. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 What happened to your trusty Robert Harley Guide, Ray? Nice work of mixing pieces of truth with pieces of absurdity to net a 100% obfuscation of things at hand, not to mention a general fouling of accepted statements with misplaced words and meaning. Of course, you could have been just joking... heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Roger Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 "Nice work of mixing pieces of truth with pieces of absurdity to net a 100% obfiscation of things at hand, not to mention a general fouling of accepted statements with misplaced words and meaning" Do you talk like that on a daily basis? Bet you have a ton of friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 No to cause any obfuscation but it is likely MH hit the 'i' accidentally - given that it is in close approximation to the 'u' - this probably explains why it appeared to be obfuscatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 What amplifier is shown in your Avatar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Roger Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 That was a joke btw. HH scott 299b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I am not sure if you were asking me but I am happy to respond. That would be the new and improved "Bung-hole Boomer" with manual muting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 I have noticed that these longer threads on the 2 channel forum seem to go haywire in the middle with all sorts of strange interjections coming up. Some of the figures quoted here are a little odd. I think I will stand by mine but the rest .... well - I think I will take them under advisement!! As long as we are all enjoying the music I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.