Cornman Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Thats been the question , at least for me the past couple months . Dont no why I never tried the direct approach before ( from source to power amp direct no pre ) . As I started to put togehter a system I ordered a few components . The B. Latino ST120 arrived first so not having a pre decided to give it a try with no pre .pushing the Cornscallas . Quickly I was smilling, and thinking these Lation amps and the Cornscallas are a good match -good synergy ,sounds dam good .A few days latter a BAT vk30 pre arrived and I thought things are going to really get good now . Wrong,,, the sound was smoother but lost a lot of bass and dynamics . Ten years ago or so , Mark our Juicy Music creator posted in a lively thread that was going on at the time about Why WE need a Power Pre Amp. rather then a passive . Wish I could find that post again . How many of you have tried direct and what was your experience ? I have not giving up on pre amps, I have two more pre amps ( Cary slp98p F1 and a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium ) on the way so more fun testing to be had . Hopefully one will take away some small harshness in some upper mid range fq . with out loosing bass and dynamics . If you have never tried direct, give it a spin you might be surprised, or at least its a good way to economically get started in separate components . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 My DAC has a built in pre... I bypass it in favor of the tube pre. Without either option, I have no way of controlling gain.... unless I buy a Khozmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbphoto Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 For a year, I ran a Schiit Sys passive switch box between my DAC, turntable and amp. Sounded great - no complaints. About 6 months ago, I added an active pre-amp with a 5-band analog equalizer. It also sounds fantastic and it simplified my cabling. My initial impression was the active-pre-amp smoothed things out a bit, but without losing dynamics. I think if you have great impedance matching and don't need to switch between several sources, a direct/passive-pre is perfect. However, if you have to smooth out impedance mis-matches between several sources, and/or need an equalizer, bass management, or home-theater-bypass, then an active pre is best. Assuming quality products, I think the slight difference in sound is related to how each method handles impedance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornman Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 I agree Pbphoto , Impedance matching seams to be one of the biggest issues and how unfettered ( original )has the signal become passing thru the pre . Shu the gain control was probably one of the reasons I never tried direct before . But my gear this time had gain control on both the Oppo 980H remote and the Latino Amp.so there was plenty of control. I am still trying to understand if there is any advantage too running the oppo at max output or is the quality still the same when i turn down the oppo signal strength . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 I haven't used a pre in years. My class D amps are fed a balanced diet directly from a Pono player. The gain and music selection are controlled by the Pono. The ESS Sabre DAC in the Pono player is eveyrthing I need. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 50 minutes ago, pbphoto said: For a year, I ran a Schiit Sys passive switch box between my DAC, turntable and amp. Sounded great - no complaints. About 6 months ago, I added an active pre-amp with a 5-band analog equalizer. It also sounds fantastic and it simplified my cabling. My initial impression was the active-pre-amp smoothed things out a bit, but without losing dynamics. I think if you have great impedance matching and don't need to switch between several sources, a direct/passive-pre is perfect. However, if you have to smooth out impedance mis-matches between several sources, and/or need an equalizer, bass management, or home-theater-bypass, then an active pre is best. Assuming quality products, I think the slight difference in sound is related to how each method handles impedance. GREAT post is great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, DizRotus said: I haven't used a pre in years. My class D amps are fed a balanced diet directly from a Pono player. The gain and music selection are controlled by the Pono. The ESS Sabre DAC in the Pono player is eveyrthing I need. I am going to be trying this this very week. I am going to run my astell&kern ess pro to a decware headphone tube amp and see what I get. The amp can also drive my speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, Cornman said: I agree Pbphoto , Impedance matching seams to be one of the biggest issues and how unfettered ( original )has the signal become passing thru the pre . Shu the gain control was probably one of the reasons I never tried direct before . But my gear this time had gain control on both the Oppo 980H remote and the Latino Amp.so there was plenty of control. I am still trying to understand if there is any advantage too running the oppo at max output or is the quality still the same when i turn down the oppo signal strength . You last point is a good one. I would bet somewhere between 75% volume to max would be the sweet spot. Try asking a tech at OPPO if you can? Gain staging is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.4 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Schu said: My DAC has a built in pre... I bypass it in favor of the tube pre. Without either option, I have no way of controlling gain.... unless I buy a Khozmo Buy the Khozmo. The new ones are sonically invisible. I may get another one for a pass/Korg project I will be starting soon. As for the gain from a preamp....it depends on your amp and source. I did not need gain to drive my amp and adding gain ahead of it made the sound harsh. It sounds better with just the khozmo. I will be pulling the gain stage (and selling it) to replace it with a buffer. If I don’t like that it will be just the khozmo for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 I've been considering it for years. I even contacted craig to see if he could add a stepped resistor attenuator for the nbs. They really are not that expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pallpoul Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 I have been using the Musical Paradise MP-701 with excellent results. I changed all tubes to the G/L, and the sound is amazing. http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.4 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, Schu said: I've been considering it for years. I even contacted craig to see if he could add a stepped resistor attenuator for the nbs. They really are not that expensive. The MKII sounds good, but the 64 step relay version is much better. sorry OT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornman Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 " I would bet somewhere between 75% volume to max would be the sweet spot. " My ears seem to agree with you Westcoastdrums at least in preliminary testing . Somewhere around 50% the signal seems not to be saturated enough. I would like to hear that confirmed by Oppo . Reassuring to hear that from you Dizrotus , I suspect there are several others with similar experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Cornman said: " I would bet somewhere between 75% volume to max would be the sweet spot. " My ears seem to agree with you Westcoastdrums at least in preliminary testing . Somewhere around 50% the signal seems not to be saturated enough. I would like to hear that confirmed by Oppo . Reassuring to hear that from you Dizrotus , I suspect there are several others with similar experience. Gain staging/SNR 👂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 I've used a couple of cd players with a built in volume control with a variety of speakers, and amps. Although I used it primarily for testing components, I was not impressed with the sound in most topologies, except for the ones Maynard helped me build. He has an "ear-bleed filter" in several of his designs which also incorporate volume pots. The sound is very, very good. Amazing actually. However, I listen primarily to vinyl. Not only do I need RIAA equalization, but I need a step-up for my Low Output Moving Coils carts. Thus at a minimum, a phono pre is required. I am fortunate to own two stellar tubed pres: The Anthem Pre1 and, best of all, Craig's NBS Pre-amp. The NBS run with a Marantz 8b and Khorns using the AK Five xover is a match made in heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossidian Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) McIntosh MC2000 tube amp direct to McIntosh MDA1000 DAC. This is the way I like to hear my tube amp mostly. Edited January 16, 2019 by Ossidian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 12 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said: I would bet somewhere between 75% volume to max would be the sweet spot. I have an Oppo 105D and that is exactly what I've learned via much research on Oppo user groups, forums and other sources. I will typically set my Oppo output to 90 and then control the final gain stage with the Mc C22 III. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 When I said earlier that I hadn’t used a pre in years, that does not include using a phono preamp when ripping vinyl to FLAC files to be played using a Pono player. Naturally, a phono preamp with RIAA equalization is needed when playing vinyl using a Denon DL-110 MC cartridge. Once ripped, I do not handle the vinyl again. Other than the very few I keep (Kind of Blue, Time Out, DSOM and Sheffield Lab pressings), I trade in ripped vinyl for new buried treasures in the bargain bins of used record shops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Ossidian said: McIntosh MC2000 tube amp direct to McIntosh MDA1000 DAC. This is the way I like to hear my tube amp mostly. Nice looking setup.... I would think getting electronics off of the carpet may be a good thing.... I wouldn't argue with you though for fear that you may bludgeon me with one of those power cords 😮 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossidian Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said: Nice looking setup.... I would think getting electronics off of the carpet may be a good thing.... I wouldn't argue with you though for fear that you may bludgeon me with one of those power cords 😮 Lol. The amp is on 2" acrylic with 2" footers. The DAC is under 3" footers. The class D amps do not give off any heat on the bottom. Appreciate it though. Edited January 16, 2019 by Ossidian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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