Bass and Treble knobs

[timerr]

Someone told me the other day that if you have to move your bass and or treble knobs off of 0, then you didn't spend enough on speakers. Just wondered what you all thought about that? Seems to go along with the thinking of not adding or taking away from the natural studio sound. In general, where do you keep yours set, do you adjust for different music? Comments...

[j-malotky]

Depends on your room and music preferences also.

My Heritage speakers are very dynamic and live sounding. My listening room also has a very flat responce with only 3 nulls and very solid corners. Because of this I am running my equipment flat and it sounds awesome listening to any style of music.

I would bet there are people here who have Khorns and still need a equalizer to make them sound good because of crappy room dimentions.

JM

[jdm56]

Some folks have an almost religious zeal about their quest for purity of reproduction. And to them, tone controls and equalizers are big no-no's. And in a perfect world, where every recording was tailor-made for your listening room, they would have a valid point. But, it ain't a perfect world. Every recording studio probably sounds different. Every recording engineer has different hearing and taste. The recording monitors differ, etc, etc. Plus, nearly all "major label" recordings are subject to all sorts of analog and/or digital manipulation before they are finished. And then, once you get the recording home, again, everything varies: room dimensions, construction, furnishings, playback equipment, and personal taste. So this "pure" ideal generally doesn't exist. And even minimalist, audiophile recordings are still subject to a lot of the same variables.

So in light of all of that, I have a hard time figuring out what harm a little eq can do if the subjective effect is desirable to the listener.

Personally, my k-horns sound a little thin in the bass with my current set-up, so I juice the bass about 3-4 decibels, depending on the recording. And no, I wouldn't describe my room as crappy. But I would not be against inserting a good EQ into the system, either. Every room has resonances and cancellations. Good rooms just have many smaller ones that are spread out, while bad rooms pile them up, causing large peaks and dips.

[Jim Cornell]

Some one told you one of the biggest key idea to speakers!

They on this BB?

Bass and treble are the only 2 knobs i DONT use!

Havent for years, just a flat signal nothing more sounds great, now on your speaker listening, like in stores make sure the knobs are flat, then listen to the speakers!

I was demoing RF-7s, they had the bass 3/4s up!

Why i dont know!

Regards Jim

[WMcD]

Timerr,

The statement is just too much of a generalization to be true, and it is also too specific to speakers to be true.

There is some truth to it in that speakers with wide, level frequecy response generally don't need alteration in response by the knobs. But, for example, if you have poor bass response in the speaker, cranking the bass knob or turning on "loudness" will be more satisfying, within limits.

Equally important, recordings differ. In classical, the concert halls may be warm or hard. Microphone placement alters things. In pop, tracks on the same CD are balanced differently.

Also, our playback rooms differ.

You can't lay all the blame on speakers.

Gil

[powdermnky007]

It is also a known fact that turning UP the bass on certain bose speakers has been known to decrease bass response!

[vanderrg]

I did a search and found this thread-

I recently bought RF-7's and a Denon 3805. While listening to CDs I felt there just wasn't that full, rich bass that I know RF-7's are capable of. I know the speakers work because if I play a DVD that has lots of bass (i.e. The Incredibles) the RF-7's really rumble during the crazy bass-heavy parts.

I came to the conclusion that my CDs (classic Rock mostly) just maybe aren't recorded with the kind of bass like you would hear at a live concert and so I wanted to see what those on the boards here would say about cranking up the bass knobs on their receivers. I know that any kind of processing of the sound is tantamount to sin...but I would be surprised if everyone else here were content with CD sound lacking in good, pounding bass.

Maybe my room is part of the problem but I sort of doubt it...it has curtains and carpet and is 14 x 17.

So I'm wondering if anyone else, particularly those with RF-7's and especially with a similar receiver, felt the same way and maybe tinkered with the bass setting to compensate...

[Duke Spinner]

perhaps you want to consider the use of a Quality 31 band EQ ...

the Bass control, can add a lot of Boom, in the 150 hz region on most stuff that has a knob, anyways

try to keep te boost at a + 3dB level

don't forget, you are also reducing the rated sensitivity of the speaker, by the amountof the boost

[Daddy Dee]

I like to use tone controls on my Khorns. It helps especially in two situations, first for low level volumes to boost the bass in the "loudness" control. Also to make adjustments for poor recordings can make them much more enjoyable.

Agree the advice you got is too generalized.

[J.4knee]

Yeah in a perfect world perhaps. But if you use the knobs and like your sound then who cares what someone else says.

[garymd]

I feel no need for tone controls on my Khorn/MkIII/Blueberry system. Then again, I don't have any and have no idea how it would sound. With my Cornwall/Scott 299b system, I sometimes turn down the treble a bit on brighter recordings. I'm thinking this may be due in part to the original crossovers. I think once I get them back to spec, it may smooth things out somewhat. Not really sure though. Could be tube related or any one of a dozen other issues.

I agree with the others however that this statement is way too generalized.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I am with the what YOU like matters club!

To just say because you have XYZ expensive pre amp you "never need it" is just silly. (Except for the argument that very good pre amps / amps often times send a great signal amplified to your speakers and sound wonderful!) You like a little more Treble.. Little more bass on that song.. Go 4 it!

Kinda like the older loudness nobs, if used at lower levels correctly, they were the best in the 1970's older Harman Kardon 430, 730, 930 amps.

[jbsl]

I work nights and do most listenig from 3:30 AM to 7:00 AM. So having tone and a loudness controls is very helpful. I use the loudness button and keep the volume at a level so that a person sitting on the couch next to me would have to raise their voice to talk to me but not scream. When I take the loudness off and set the tone controls to 0 the sound is thin and lacking in bass.

Now I could turn up the volume to levels that would give me neighbor madning bass but I prefer to get along with my neighbors. My living room is 15 X 15 X 8 and the La Scalas overpower me when I go past the listening point I described. I own a Luxman int amp used as a preamp with a Cayin TA 30 tube int amp and the Luxman has a EXCELLENT LOUDNESS button. Even if I had a larger room TO ME with the loudness on the sound has a fuller, richer sound and I'm not about trying to get it to concert leveles anymore but the best sound possible. It might have to do with the fact that some people say La SCalas lack any low bass and the loudness helps a little with that.

No one on the forum can convince me that my music sounds better without the loudness using my system in my current living room and I cannot tell others that their music would sound better with tone controls. Whatever floats your boat: tone controls or not it's all up to each of us and what we like.

With the right equipment I may not need tone controls. I'm saving my pennies to try a Juicymusic Peach to see how much better it sounds than my Luxman. I may just need to get a couple of VRDs to go with my Luxman and when I get a bigger house then get a peach.

Xman

[Spkrdctr]

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On 7/10/2005 8:56:41 PM vanderrg wrote:

I know that any kind of processing of the sound is tantamount to sin...but I would be surprised if everyone else here were content with CD sound lacking in good, pounding bass.

----------------

It is no sin at all. It is a sin to listen to crap when you could easily adjust your controls for a much better sound. Use them if you have them! Enjoy!

[michael hurd]

Used in moderation at low volumes, tone controls offer a slight amount of control over the sound. When a tone control / loudness feature is not recommended: higher volume playback with small amplifiers.

If we revisit basic math, doubling the amount of electrical power will result in a 3 db increase in sound pressure level, not considering thermal or mechanical compression.

Say you were to boost the frequencies at 31.5 hz by 9 db as indicated by a graphic equalizer. We will assume that the graduations are correct on the eq. If you were listening at a 5 watt level, and a transient comes along at 31.5 hz, now the power amp is asked to put out 40 watts.

If we substitute low-efficiency speakers instead of efficient ones, and the average power level climbed to 50 watts, then boosting by 9 db would ask the power amp to put out 400 watts at that frequency, assuming that the signal is not attenuated in the source media.

[sunnysal]

sweeping generalizations like that ALWAYS show the person talking to be a fool. given the HUGE variety of recordings re: quality, rooms and systems, etc. it is ridiculous to state tone controls should never be used.

I, for one, would never have a system without tome controls available, I use them rarely, but when they are needed, they are needed.

forget the "purists", they seldom are truely purists, they fiddle with different amps, different cabgles, different caps in thier systems to get results in tonality that they like. they play with tone, they just do it in an "macro" manner and for big bucks. then they cannot adjust for the many different sources that come into play. (LP versus CDS, old versus new recordings, etc.)

try find a system with well implemented tone controls (high quality components, good circuitry)...this is hard to do in current offerings since the "purists" currently rule the roost. (only McInotsh comes to mind in terms of current, high quality tone control implementation). but plenty of vintage gear has good tone control sub systems (marantz preamps for example)

there are digital offerings out there (DEQX, z-systems, TacT, etc.) but they all cost >$3k to get into the game, though they do give great results.

regards, tony

[DRBILL]

I built several "passive pre-amplifiers"* for myself and family members a while back. You can go from the CD player directly to the power amplifiers controling nothing but the volume. It is such a wonderfully clean sound on carefully recorded CDs that I lothe to return to the "active" pre-amp. Unfortunately, my collection of "carefully recorded CD's" can be carried around in the pockets of a windbreaker. It is the rest of the collection that requires active "manipulation." Sound engineers love to mix all the excitement out of music while making a homogenized sound.

* I hate that nomenclature, but we are stuck with it. At least every one seems to know what you are talking about when you say "passive pre-amplifier."

DR BILL

[michael hurd]

Sunnysal, if you re-read my post, no where did I say that under no circumstances should they be used. Instead, I gave an explanation to what happens when you utilize boost, either from a graphic eq or a tone control.

You are certainly welcome to use whatever you feel is appropriate for you, and I will do likewise. I do not appreciate being called a "fool" for what I have written. However, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, and I cannot change that.

[leok]

There are factors other than shape of frequency response to be considered. Tone controls, whether or not they are at the "flat" position, add considerable passive and active circuitry to the signal path. I prefer as few elements in that path as I can get away with. I find the sound to be much clearer and the available dynamic range greater (especially in the direction of ability to hear the very low level details such as natural echo in a recording that does not add electronic reverb).

If you add tone controls there is some compromise in clarity .. maybe very little in a good implementation. If you don't hear the difference, and like what tone controls add, then use them. If you can hear the difference, you have a few choices to consider, like: no tone controls, better tone controls, or keep the tone controls the way they are.

Leo

[Speedball]

I'm using the Rf7's, Denon stereo reciever as a pre and a Sonographe 120 amp, the tone controls must be used. If I defeat the tone controls the speakers are unlistenable.

Tone controls "would" or "would not" be used depending on what else is used in the system and how it sounds to you. For someone to say they are bad speakers based on whether or not tone controls are used just does not make any sense to me.