Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 19 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: I'll defer to Dean on the technical aspect. In real world application, I really like how they sound. My simple thinking was that going with that style cap would be close to how the originals sounded when new. The originals were paper in oil. They then went to Mylar in oil (film and foil) - and finally to dry axial wound metalized Mylars. What you have there are metalized polypropylene in oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, karlson3 said: at some point I think Klipsch was using block caps in the Heritage crossovers. I have a bunch of 12uF of that type and they seemed to sound decent with K55V/511B, APT150 and FH1 Yes, the small 2uF caps in the AK/AL/AB networks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 ("speaking of protection" - those block caps seem tough as nails) - I assume capacitors can be "microphonic" and perhaps tested/compared in that regard by either plugging into a guitar amp and tapping the cap, or maybe into a sound card's mic input, tapping and recording results with RTA. I don't know how that might correlate to how their tone might be perceived. some ESR numbers on the fancy $ caps would be helpful to see if there are any losses great enough to affect their sonics. In guitar amp power supplies, S. Bench once told me a small inductor in series with a modern cap can be helpful to emulate the characteristics of the old caps of their day which had higher ESR and L. btw - I used to see some audiophile debate saying round cross-section caps could be preferred to those with oval cross section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 35 minutes ago, Deang said: The originals were paper in oil. They then went to Mylar in oil (film and foil) - and finally to dry axial wound metalized Mylars. What you have there are metalized polypropylene in oil. Whatever they are they sound good. They're not horribly expensive either. You should get some, mock up a rough set and see how they sound to your ears. Measurements don't mean anything anyway. Seriously you should build at least one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 I wonder if these modern labeled "Aerovox" cap are as nice as those Genteq? - the only value I see for my stuff would be 24uF-25uF for charged coupled type A/AA (or regular with swamping R) something on this site triggered Malwarebytes anyhow - here's a 25uF cap - dunno the shipping https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/201577/AERO-Z23S3725M01N.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3PLixLTm4AIVzcDACh1LtAmREAQYASABEgIIYPD_BwE https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/370-vac-motor-run-capacitors/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 2 hours ago, karlson3 said: there's an experiment I'd like to see ... solder one of those highly touted (but cheap) Dayton film and foil caps in the range of 0.047uF to 0.1uF across a Dayton ~2uF cap then compare that composite cap to a Sonicap with the same approximate value to see if that bypass cap (which would have insignificant effect upon reactance compared to 2uF) actually has any measurable effect upon ESR. I'm curious about it, too, but maybe for a different reason. A 0.1uF cap has a reactance of 1500 ohms at 1 kHz, down to 100 ohms at 17 kHz. Even if the ESR of the cap-so-piggybacked (2 uF is 70 ohms and 4 ohms reactance at those same frequencies) is, well, I lost my train of thought. It was called to my attention that the dogs came in covered in snow... Obviously it would be ideal to have a capacitor that's just a capacitor (no resistance otherwise) but if you're talking about 0.anything ESR anyway, I don't get the allure of the bypass cap. Maybe some day it'll "come to me," but that's not the case today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 55 minutes ago, karlson3 said: I assume capacitors can be "microphonic" ... I know the ceramic types are. As pertaining to other types, it’s open to debate. However, the folks who make ClarityCaps make a big production about it. Quote ...some ESR numbers on the fancy $ caps would be helpful to see if there are any losses great enough to affect their sonics. What is “a fancy cap”? I hear that a lot around here, but it doesn’t mean anything. Please be specific. Some cost more than they should, others cost more for good reason. Any polypropylene capacitor, regardless of construction, will measure low in ESR. Quote Bench once told me a small inductor in series with a modern cap can be helpful to emulate the characteristics of the old caps of their day which had higher ESR and L. Steve is right. Guys on the Lansing forum have been doing it for years to restore the original voicing of their loudspeakers. Quote I used to see some audiophile debate saying round cross-section caps could be preferred to those with oval cross section. Ovals are pressed, which stretches the film and creates lesions in the film. This allows for low level arcing. However, this actually applies to all metalized types, which is why they are called “self healing”. The charge blows through the pin hole and the heat seals the damage. The cheaper the cap, the thinner the film is, and the higher the likelihood of compromised film. https://marc.info/?l=basslist&m=101836144300969&w=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 I see what you're saying with regard to logic with teensy bypass caps. FWIW, even DJK suggested using those cheap small value Dayton "bypass" caps along with cheap film metallized Dayton polypropylene caps for crossovers. IIRC - MultiCap describes some of their product as having internal bypassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Yes, the RTX MultiCap, made by Reliable Capacitor. Great product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 regarding my view of a "fancy $" cap = anything which costs more than $1/uF in smaller crossover values and over $0.5 per uF for larger. I'm not saying those made more carefully and with better lead termination aren't better capacitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 40 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: Whatever they are they sound good. They're not horribly expensive either. You should get some, mock up a rough set and see how they sound to your ears. Measurements don't mean anything anyway. Seriously you should build at least one. I would prefer to use someone else’s ears. Someone like Russ, who is currently running every iteration of my AA, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, karlson3 said: regarding my view of a "fancy $" cap = anything which costs more than $1/uF in smaller crossover values and over $0.5 per uF for larger. I'm not saying those made more carefully and with better lead termination aren't better capacitors. When I hear “Fancy”, I hear “voodoo” and “flooby dust”! A good film and foil like the Theta runs $20 for the 2uF. It’s not “fancy” - that’s just what a decent film and foil costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 $20 for 2uF = true for film and foil - but behold the glory of a shiny RED metallized film 2.2uF cap with low ESR and tight capacitance tolerance at $1.00 (Parts Express) - some say they sound "great" (others say "grate") It even says "Audiophiler" to denote its quality and the fine tastes of its user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Lol. Yeah, the marketing stuff is just silly. Drives me nuts. Just tell me what the damn thing really is and charge me accordingly. Speaking of which - went out to Mouser several years ago to buy some film and foils, and the Vishays were outrageously priced compared to the PPT Theta, which really surprised me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 what happens in old metallized film caps for ESR to rise ? - is it a slow oxidation process at the lead termination? Is that less apt to happen with foil plate caps? In my old Edgarhorn system and metallized "Chateauroux" cap , that cap failed and measured near zero uF - dead in a years time from purchase - never stressed. re: microphonics - 50 years ago I made a crude CR-CR rumble filter for phono - if placed between the cartridge and the phono preamp input, the Orange Drop caps were quite microphonic and would "bonnngggggg" when tapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Not just old, but new as well. Since you can’t solder the leads to the film, they eventually succumb to the effects of moisture creep and air (corrosion). Interesting about those orange drops. Hmmm. I haven’t read about dielectric breakdown in a long time. Probably worth a google search - since the old cans were sealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 14 hours ago, Schu said: Will they explode if you toss'em in a fire? Don't know. But I don't think that you should set fire to them and breathe the smoke. PCBs readily penetrate skin, PVC (polyvinyl chloride), and latex (natural rubber).[12] PCB-resistant materials include Viton, polyethylene, polyvinyl acetate (PVA), polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), butyl rubber, nitrile rubber, and Neoprene.[12] Some PCBs share a structural similarity and toxic mode of action with dioxins.[6] Other toxic effects such as endocrine disruption (notably blocking of thyroid system functioning) and neurotoxicity are known.[7] The maximum allowable contaminant level in drinking water in the United States is set at zero, but because of the limitations of water treatment technologies, a level of 0.5 parts per billion is the de facto level.[8] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 2 hours ago, karlson3 said: I assume capacitors can be "microphonic" and perhaps tested/compared in that regard by either plugging into a guitar amp and tapping the cap, or maybe into a sound card's mic input, tapping and recording results with RTA. I don't know how that might correlate to how their tone might be perceived. While we're discussing high-level crossovers, I surmise that capacitor "microphonics," to the extent the phenomenon exists, is an entirely moot point. I do agree that it would be undesirable in situations where amplification follows the location of the capacitor. Much the same as wiring being susceptible to radio or other electromagnetic radiation (i.e. prior to amplification stages but not applicable to speaker leads or power leads from the wall to the electronics). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 2 hours ago, karlson3 said: regarding my view of a "fancy $" cap = anything which costs more than $1/uF in smaller crossover values and over $0.5 per uF for larger. I'm not saying those made more carefully and with better lead termination aren't better capacitors. This is not a "techincal" view or one of performance... its one of economics. If you messure two capacitors... one costing $10 and the other $100... and both perform similar, what exactly the drawback of using the $100 capacitor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Less money in checking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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