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Dave A

electrolytic capacitors

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Working on some KPT 100 and 200 crossovers and wanting to replace those old TI electrolytic caps. The problem I am having is the new Erse caps have just as high ESR as the 20 year old TI's do. Kind of sad really that 15 and 25uf new Erse caps are measuring at least .3+ ESR. Any suggestions for better ones? I have a hard time believing those Erse's are state of the art and no better than the old caps are.

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52 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Working on some KPT 100 and 200 crossovers and wanting to replace those old TI electrolytic caps. The problem I am having is the new Erse caps have just as high ESR as the 20 year old TI's do. Kind of sad really that 15 and 25uf new Erse caps are measuring at least .3+ ESR. Any suggestions for better ones? I have a hard time believing those Erse's are state of the art and no better than the old caps are.

 

Short of going to exotics, I've had good luck with the JB capacitors available here. Good quality, high Q, and not terribly expensive.

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

Working on some KPT 100 and 200 crossovers and wanting to replace those old TI electrolytic caps. The problem I am having is the new Erse caps have just as high ESR as the 20 year old TI's do. Kind of sad really that 15 and 25uf new Erse caps are measuring at least .3+ ESR. Any suggestions for better ones? I have a hard time believing those Erse's are state of the art and no better than the old caps are.

 

Hey Dave, just curious why didn’t you use the Dayton’s for these?

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The basic chemistry of electrolytics has not changed in about 75 years, so there are various tolerances of 'lytics but at the end of the day, a lytic is a lytic is a lytic. . Solen polypropylenes are not expensive and sound just fine. 

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1 hour ago, boom3 said:

The basic chemistry of electrolytics has not changed in about 75 years, so there are various tolerances of 'lytics but at the end of the day, a lytic is a lytic is a lytic. . Solen polypropylenes are not expensive and sound just fine. 

 

 

Instead of Solens, use WIMA DC LINK MKP-4s, 4 PIN versions, which are quite superior to Solens.  They are industrially priced !!   Mouser, etc carries them.  I normally bypass large caps with smaller film caps, a whole other topic !!

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Can't speak to audible superiority, but I used WIMAs to re-cap my Corns. The four lead box looks good for a PCB based crossover. 

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2 hours ago, boom3 said:

Can't speak to audible superiority, but I used WIMAs to re-cap my Corns. The four lead box looks good for a PCB based crossover. 

 

Bypass EACH of the basic larger value WIMA MKP4s with a 0.22uF FKP1 WIMA at 1250 VDC, a 0.022 uF FKP1 at 1250 VDC , and a WIMA  FKP2 0.01 at 630 VDC, and P.M. me as to what it sounds like to you !!  You'll fall in love, I bet !!   SHORT lead lengths.

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Here we go again with this horseshit.  A capacitor starts out at extremely high, approaching infinite, impedance at DC and it drops impedance as frequency goes up.  A 0.2 uF capacitor is only "down" to 40 ohms at 20kHz, so how the hell is that going to offer anything worthwhile to the signal content when used in a loudspeaker crossover?

 

0.02 uF is 400 ohms at 20kHz, and 0.01uF is 800 ohms!

 

Any signal getting through such small-value caps in series with the drivers is going to be several orders of dB below audibility, thus an utter waste of time and money.

 

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/capacitor-impedance-calculator/

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Jeff, I want you to fashion a setup where the bypass caps can instantly be switched into and out of the circuit.  You may use as much 8AWG mil-spec silver-plated wire as necessary, and as high-precision gold-plated-contact switches, too.  I'll then come and operate the switches while you listen.  I want to see you be able to detect change!

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I'm glad to see someone else take up the resistance (!) to the bypassing chimera. It's a legitimate concept from RF work that got cross-walked into POOGE when good film caps were scarce and expensive to hobbyists, and then got a life of its own. Replacing electrolytics in the signal path with good quality film caps does make a diff, but then the improvement hits a brick wall as the rest of the circuit, stacked component tolerances, the listening room, etc swamp out any measurable gains in quality..

 

The only legit audio frequency/speaker impedance bypass I know is using a cap to bypass a tweeter attenuator, to compensate for falling tweeter response. I'm using that on an attenuator for a Great Heil, and it not only flattens out the last octave but reduces the bobbles in the 5-10 KHz (9th octave) range as well. 

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On 3/13/2020 at 7:33 AM, Madman1 said:

 

Hey Dave, just curious why didn’t you use the Dayton’s for these?

It's pretty space restricted on that little PC board.

 

On 3/13/2020 at 8:03 AM, glens said:

Is your meter in proper calibration?

Yes and that calibration you mention would still show variance even if it was off. It shows the 20 year old TI's to measure the same as today's Erse's did.

 

20 hours ago, boom3 said:

The basic chemistry of electrolytics has not changed in about 75 years, so there are various tolerances of 'lytics but at the end of the day, a lytic is a lytic is a lytic. . Solen polypropylenes are not expensive and sound just fine. 

Yes and I am looking for a good tolerance electrolytic that beats the 20 year old ones. I need the smaller size here if I can find something worthwhile.

 

13 hours ago, boom3 said:

The four lead box looks good for a PCB based crossover. 

OK could you tell me what that means?

 

10 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

Bypass EACH of the basic larger value WIMA MKP4s with a 0.22uF FKP1 WIMA at 1250 VDC, a 0.022 uF FKP1 at 1250 VDC , and a WIMA  FKP2 0.01 at 630 VDC, and P.M. me as to what it sounds like to you !!  You'll fall in love, I bet !!   SHORT lead lengths.

I think I will pass on that.

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10 hours ago, glens said:

Here we go again with this horseshit.  A capacitor starts out at extremely high, approaching infinite, impedance at DC and it drops impedance as frequency goes up.  A 0.2 uF capacitor is only "down" to 40 ohms at 20kHz, so how the hell is that going to offer anything worthwhile to the signal content when used in a loudspeaker crossover?

 

0.02 uF is 400 ohms at 20kHz, and 0.01uF is 800 ohms!

 

Any signal getting through such small-value caps in series with the drivers is going to be several orders of dB below audibility, thus an utter waste of time and money.

 

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/capacitor-impedance-calculator/

 

 

Glen, 

 

You can take your formulas, and theory, and discard it, because it does not represent what happens in a REAL system, and in the real world. 

 

Of course, for it to happen in the real world, you will need wide band equipment, designed and implemented so that it provides FULL musical expression.  This is only possible with multiple bypassing of film caps.  I doubt you have ever owned such an amplifier, and a system, where you could hear this.   Few have.   I guarantee you, some of us run such amps, and systems !!

 

In an amplifier, in KEY capacitor spots, it takes a minimum of three film bypasses, to as many as seven in a "C" location.  Once the amp is so-optimized, you can apply well thought out implementations to the speaker wire, crossover wire, and film caps on the crossover. See photo. I will NOT build stereo amps, henceforth, because its too crowded, and impossible to easily work on, when the needed-as-ascertained-by-EAR film bypass caps are added.

 

P1010004.thumb.JPG.5da53d04ecca7fec8049db5951d8edc3.JPG

 

 

 

" I was blind, but now I see "

 

Jeff

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On 3/13/2020 at 6:12 AM, Dave A said:

Working on some KPT 100 and 200 crossovers and wanting to replace those old TI electrolytic caps. The problem I am having is the new Erse caps have just as high ESR as the 20 year old TI's do. Kind of sad really that 15 and 25uf new Erse caps are measuring at least .3+ ESR. Any suggestions for better ones? I have a hard time believing those Erse's are state of the art and no better than the old caps are.

 

Hi Dave, 

 

WIMA DC LINKs at 15 uF have a rated ESR from 5.4 mOhms to 7.4 mOhms.   (  The FOUR pin 15 uF at 900 VDC sounds GREAT !!  )

 

WIMA DC LINK s at 25 uF, have a ESR rated at 3.6 mOhms to 5.5 mOhms. Be sure to get the 4 PIN ones, not two.

 

Industrially priced.  Mouser, etc.

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

P1010004.thumb.JPG.5da53d04ecca7fec8049db5951d8edc3.JPG

 

 

Reminds of the Eminem Godzilla video where he pukes Legos all over the floor...

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

See photo. I will NOT build stereo amps, henceforth, because its too crowded, and impossible to easily work on, when the needed-as-ascertained-by-EAR film bypass caps are added.

 

Do you not realize that overheating capacitors by excessive soldering changes their electrical characteristics? If you're hearing any difference at all, that may very well be the cause of it. It's certainly a more plausible explanation than magic.

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OK Jeffrey here is the crossover in question I am working on. I am somewhat intrigued by your approach and wonder how you would improve upon this one.

ScreenHunter_436 Dec. 20 19.57.jpg

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

 

Do you not realize that overheating capacitors by excessive soldering changes their electrical characteristics? If you're hearing any difference at all, that may very well be the cause of it. It's certainly a more plausible explanation than magic.

 

 

I am not overheating capacitors !!  You are grasping at straws.  Its not magic. 

 

Proper multiple film bypassing is THE state of the art, and only one or two people in this world even know how to do it well, really well.

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1 minute ago, Dave A said:

OK Jeffrey here is the crossover in question I am working on. I am somewhat intrigued by your approach and wonder how you would improve upon this one.

ScreenHunter_436 Dec. 20 19.57.jpg

 

 

I have given you enough in this thread to get started, you figure it out. Experiment and listen.  Start with your amp. 

 

Use good wire with some silver content. I do not use such a complex music-robbing crossover.

 

Jeff 

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OK what would you replace this crossover with? I see your picture but there was no schematic so I don't know what you did.

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