Cornwall midrange horn upgrade

[mopardave]

On 7/9/2020 at 11:52 AM, VDS said:

Hi, I’ve read a lot of the threads that talk about horns, but still not enlightened,  certainly horn design is a complex endeavor, but is there any consensus on installing a larger mid horn on Cornwalls.  Everybody raves about the mids on LaScala and K Horns, both with large horns.  I am exploring replacing stock horn with, I think, something larger. Even if I have to cut a hole in the back and have driver outside of cabinet.  Like PWK said “music lives in the midrange” And I want as much as possible.

thanks so much for any perspectives on this.  Using A55g drivers.

Over the past winter i built a pair of CornScala's from my home built vertical Cornwalls.  I have not spent alot of time with them yet, but i'm still yet to hear a big improvement.  I used the ALK CSW/universal and after the last adjustment to 9 on the mid and 6 on the tweet using B&C drivers it did bring the vocals more forward, but my Super Heresy's still have a  more lively sound with more bass.   I had to use a router and cut a pocket in the rear board to get the mid horn/driver combo to fit.   I still need more time with them, but i'm thinking a DeanG crossover may be the fix.   

[ClaudeJ1]

15 hours ago, VDS said:

That would make quieter, right?  I’d like to get a better sound, not just lower the volume on a bad sounding driver.  I hope that doesn’t sound sarcastic.  The Crites 120 is an improvement over the old k77, that’s for sure, I think I’m just getting more critical as my ears learn to listen.  
trying to understand the driver/horn synergy is really tough, figuring out if the distortion/harness is driver or horn

Yes, it is. I've been part of the quest for perfection for over 54 years, but I'm close to done right about now.

[PrestonTom]

6 hours ago, VDS said:

I’ll try that today to confirm by listening to mid and tweeter independently.  

Let me be clear. On one speaker have the woofer, mid and tweeter connected. On the second speaker have only the woofer and mid connected. I think you might be surprised. 

Is the "harshness" gone in the second speaker?

 

Good luck, 

-Tom

[VDS]

39 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

Let me be clear. On one speaker have the woofer, mid and tweeter connected. On the second speaker have only the woofer and mid connected. I think you might be surprised. 

Is the "harshness" gone in the second speaker?

 

Good luck, 

-Tom

yes, i feel the harshness is gone.  the sound loses all "dimensionality" but i suppose that is the lack of high frequency?  putting my ear 12'' straight out from active tweeter i hear some simbelence? harshness? hissing? 

[PrestonTom]

Is there any chance that the electronics are noisy or that the diaphragm on the tweeter was damaged (usually from very loud levels)?

 

[MechEngVic]

10 hours ago, VDS said:

yes, i feel the harshness is gone.  the sound loses all "dimensionality" but i suppose that is the lack of high frequency?  putting my ear 12'' straight out from active tweeter i hear some simbelence? harshness? hissing? 

Sibilance takes place between about 5000 and 8000 hz, and is your problem if it's coming from the tweeter. But your mid horn can make a lot of noise at the lower range of that too. Testing and attenuation at that frequency range can do wonders. I wouldn't listen to your speakers with a driver disconnected. Do frequency sweeps and look for the peaks. You already know the crossover frequencies. If the peaks are high enough, it's the tweeter.

[OO1]

13 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Yes, it is. I've been part of the quest for perfection for over 54 years, but I'm close to done right about now.

  Claude   ---how about a compromise between the K 400 and the K 600----------the k 500  , is it worthwhile or worthy of consideration

[jjptkd]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 5:34 AM, mopardave said:

Over the past winter i built a pair of CornScala's from my home built vertical Cornwalls.  I have not spent alot of time with them yet, but i'm still yet to hear a big improvement. 

 

Damn man no improvement going from the stock horn to that giant thing? I would have expected the sound to get much "bigger."

 

A couple years back I compared my freshly rebuilt basically stock Chorus 1's to my custom KI-362's with the CF-4 mid horn and that's what I experienced, a much bigger midrange sound. I had listened to the Chorus 1's for a few days leading up to this comparison and loved the sound but when compared to the customs they just seemed small sounding after that, best way I can describe it.

 

Of course I can't say the horn itself was 100% responsible for the change I was also using a larger driver the A55-g and a slightly lower crossover point at 500hz but everything totaled up made quite the difference.

[ClaudeJ1]

6 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

  Claude   ---how about a compromise between the K 400 and the K 600----------the k 500  , is it worthwhile or worthy of consideration

It won't fit. Look, the assumption is that if it's a KLIPSCH Cornwall, it will already have a K-600. So if you want to cut the front panel to make room for a bigger Horn, then a TRACTRIX horn will give better performance with a shorter length for a given Crossover frequency, especially if it can be front mounted to gain an extra 3/4" in depth. Plus, you can get 1.4 or 2" drivers with a flatter phycial profile than a K-55 with adapter.

 

If you are building a bass reflex box for twin 12's, twin 15's, or even a single 15, then it's not a Cornwall anymore and you can do whatever you like.

[ClaudeJ1]

57 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

 

Damn man no improvement going from the stock horn to that giant thing? I would have expected the sound to get much "bigger."

 

A couple years back I compared my freshly rebuilt basically stock Chorus 1's to my custom KI-362's with the CF-4 mid horn and that's what I experienced, a much bigger midrange sound. I had listened to the Chorus 1's for a few days leading up to this comparison and loved the sound but when compared to the customs they just seemed small sounding after that, best way I can describe it.

 

Of course I can't say the horn itself was 100% responsible for the change I was also using a larger driver the A55-g and a slightly lower crossover point at 500hz but everything totaled up made quite the difference.

The sound of a speaker is made by many components and parameters. If you are doing a mod with bigger/better drivers, then the thing that makes or breaks it is the CROSSOVER! Active, passive or a combination.

[OO1]

1 minute ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

It won't fit. Look, the assumption is that if it's a KLIPSCH Cornwall, it will already have a K-600. So if you want to cut the front panel to make room for a bigger Horn, then a TRACTRIX horn will give better performance with a shorter length for a given Crossover frequency, especially if it can be front mounted to gain an extra 3/4" in depth. Plus, you can get 1.4 or 2" drivers with a flatter phycial profile than a K-55 with adapter.

 

If you are building a bass reflex box for twin 12's, twin 15's, or even a single 15, then it's not a Cornwall anymore and you can do whatever you like.

I'm ok with my K600-------not changing anything - just a thought about the k500- in all cases , I would never butcher my cabs -

[ClaudeJ1]

2 minutes ago, RandyH000 said:

I'm ok with my K600-------not changing anything - just a thought about the k500- in all cases , I would never butcher my cabs -

Good idea. I didn't either.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 8/17/2020 at 8:34 AM, mopardave said:

Over the past winter i built a pair of CornScala's from my home built vertical Cornwalls.  I have not spent alot of time with them yet, but i'm still yet to hear a big improvement.  I used the ALK CSW/universal and after the last adjustment to 9 on the mid and 6 on the tweet using B&C drivers it did bring the vocals more forward, but my Super Heresy's still have a  more lively sound with more bass.   I had to use a router and cut a pocket in the rear board to get the mid horn/driver combo to fit.   I still need more time with them, but i'm thinking a DeanG crossover may be the fix.   

 

If you don't already have it, you need to invest in a Umik so you can run REW and MEASURE what is really happening in YOUR listening space. PWK quoting Dr. Irving Gardner: "You can't make what you can't measure because you won't know when you've got it made."

[Honeybadger]

Cornscala's are great, just need the right combination. 

 

You can certainly do better than a K600, but Dean is right about cutting into you motor boards.

 

Listen twice cut once? Measure twice cut once... Thats it.