k2dx Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Arrto - Do you have a link to such a HVAC ? I am going to be replacing mine VERY soon and would like to see such a system. If there isn't a website, who makes it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 7, 2004 Author Share Posted May 7, 2004 ---------------- On 5/7/2004 5:53:53 AM k2dx wrote: Arrto - Do you have a link to such a HVAC ? I am going to be replacing mine VERY soon and would like to see such a system. If there isn't a website, who makes it? ---------------- The one I'm currently looking at is made by Trane. Model XL19i Air conditioning & XV90 two stage variable speed furnace. Similar products are available from other manufacturers. These types of units, while considerably more expensive, cost much less to operate. Payback from electric & gas savings is about 7-8 years vs. 10-12 years for less expensive & less effiecient units. http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/AirConditioners/AirConditioners.asp http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/Furnaces/XV90.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweek Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_Shomaker Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 That was a very informative post tweek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweek Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 One week ago I moved my modified Scalas from the small wall to the big wall. Well, the result is very very different indeed! More air and space, more detail... BUT in my room I lost the great "phantom" voice that used to hang right in the middle between the speakers in the previous configuration. Now a big orchestra has better "stage" proportions, but when I listen to rock or pop music the singer's voice is not as precisely focused as it used to be. That said, there's no real "hole " in the middle of the soundstage. it's just more... "vaporous" if it makes sense. I think I rather like it... Also I moved my seat forward so it's not back against the back wall anymore. It made the sound way too "thick"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Artto, Could I direct your attention to the Home Theater section.......there is a fellow who is posting (screenname "plummer") who is building a rec room/HT with Klipschorns. Your expertise would be quite helpful to him, I think.... The thread is titled "Help, I'm new on this computer thing, but long time klipsch fan, with questions" Anyone else with comments on this can join in too! On behalf of the plummer, TIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Artto! Man, you worked hard on that stuff! Nicely done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Hi Artto, please check my next post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Hi Artto, I am about to get my new AK4 KHorns, my room is 16.04ft (L) x 13.22ft (W) x 8.59ft (H). With my previous set ups I used CARA and golden ratios but with horns I know it will be a little different. I did have trouble with the room and have added thick felt/foil punctured panels to the side walls (1.2m x 1.2m 2 of these on each 'long' wall). Unfortunately I use the short wall for set up as that is where the screen is for projection. I was running Mirage OM6'S for some time in this set-up and they eventually worked fine. The short wall is covered with a curtain, not thick (left closed for audio and obviously open for screening). The KHorns will sit in the corners of the short wall, they are full corners. The opening (2 glass doors)sit behind the listening position (rear wall)and they are covered by pull down awnings. I would not say the room is dead but it is quiet. Apart from telling me I got the design wrong, boy do I know it! Is there any tips you can give me. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istari Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Shock-Late, You might want to experiment with toe-in - toe-out of the speakers and placement of your listening position, may help a bit. Your problem is one that PWK "fixed" with the adition of the center channel speaker, some of PWK's articles on this are:(Stereophonic Sound with Two Tracks, Three Channels by Means of a Phantom Circuit {2PH3} PWK 1958, Wide Stage Stereo, PWK 1959 Experiments and Experiences in Stereo PWK 1960. There are also articles dating back to the 1930s where Bell Labs (now Lucent Technology) experimented with three channel reporduction. I've been looking at some of the older tube amps (IE: Eico 40 & 70) and they have a setup for a powered center channel derived from the left and right output transformers. Most folk think that the center channel speaker thing is new to 5.1 but its premise has been around since the 1930s or so. A seperate La Scala (or Belle) in the middle will fix the situation quite nicely and open up a whole new stage for your sounds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 bump...just thought I'd post a link to a review after listening to this insane setup. http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=52704&sessionID={D2063B34-735E-495B-8091-847E7B1A72F6} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted September 25, 2004 Author Share Posted September 25, 2004 Boomac's visit: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=54345&sessionID={39DCE7C0-4B09-4124-9FE6-AA140D6F6D00} I simply forgot about the Packers being on Monday Night Football. With my Forum pal, Jmalotky, I was on my way down to the "Windy Subs" for a long awaited experience in Artto's listening room. John gave me center, sweet spot seating when Artto put on my LP, Oliver Nelsons Stolen Moments. It was played on a Linn Sondek Turntable, through an Audio Research SP6B preamp powered by a trio of Luxman MB3045 triode power amps, I closed my eyes and good Lord, the great Freddie Hubbard was blowin' his horn right there, on the stage, at ten oclock. Grady Tate was working the brushes just right of center and the drum sounds stayed right there, where the kit was set-up. Later, (along with other great selections from Jmalotky and Artto) Isaac Stern performed Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto in D major with the help of Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra. Super Audio CD technology was the format it didn't disappoint. How sweet can a violin sound? How full and authentic can a home HI FI sound? "Just amazing" is all I can say. Isaac, you da man! Can I have your autograph? Now, what made this the most realistic listening experience Ive ever had? Was it the preamp, the great TT or was it the three beautiful tube amps? Maybe it was the acoustics of the room. Artto has designed and modeled the room after his favorite listening auditorium in Urban Ill. It was quiet with no discernable echo and the risk of sound bouncing back and forth was reduced by strategically placed sound deadening devices. It is a listening room to be envied for sure. I figure that the fantastic sound is a result of all the quality components including the environment. I could speculate on their order of importance but Ill leave that to someone thats more qualified. I just know it sounded very, very good and the experience was unforgettable. Arttos new CD player, a Shanling SCD T200 is a real thing of beauty and the sound, according to Artto is on par with the rest of his gear. He says, and I see his point, that such quality players along with significant improvements in CD and SACD make vinyl, and the hassles associated with it, a bit less attractive. Though even I could notice a slight difference in the two formats, it was negligible and not really any better or worse; just a bit different. It convinced me to rethink a proposed purchase. Rather than up grade my current turntable, I am strongly considering putting the funds into a quality SACD player. Perhaps Jmalotky will provide greater technical information and observation. He has a significant listening environment himself and he knows a lot more about all this than me. Ive been lucky enough to audition both rooms and Ill attest, with no hesitation, to their greatness. As a host, Artto was first class. He is knowledgeable, interesting and willing to share. The pizza was first class as well. Thanks Artto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Listening to Artto's room is always a treat. I still am toying with the idea of bringing my HT center into my 2CH listening system. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Just bumping this thread up for whitewolf to read. Edwin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 ---------------- On 12/7/2002 4:17:05 PM artto wrote: You might be interested to know that in my rooms original incarnation I had the speakers on the shorter wall & had lots more room depth behind me, theater style. While that may work in larger the sized spaces of theater/concert hall sizes, it doesnt seem to be the choice for optimum audio performance in domestic environments. I know that goes against conventional thinking (but hey, who ever said PWK was conventional?), especially with home theater setups where people tend to want that long room dimension for theater-like seating. ---------------- Hi Artto, I'm just finishing F. Alton Everest's book "Sound Studio Construction of a Budget" and have found it to be very good fundamental reading about room sizing, dynamics, modes, diffusion, etc. It's a very good primer. That being said, he offers a sample design for an HT or Listening Room environment, and then treats it with RPG diffusors, absorbers, etc. And you're right, the orientation of his room is as you say: L and R speakers are on the short wall, with seating resembling the theater environment. The 45 deg toe-in on Klipschorns makes this "portrait" orientation impractical as I requires near field listening or false corners like DeanG and Edster have done. Ideally, I'd like to create a room that serves both 2-channel and multi-channel listening equally well. I find the RPG product line to be interesting, but for a larger room size, applying sufficient diffusors, absorbers may be cost prohibitive. I noticed that your polycylindrical diffusors are all around the room (or at least the front and side walls with a smattering on the back). In your opinion, is this necessary with the Klipschorn, or could I apply RPG-type product where I'd anticipate axial or tangential reflections with respect to the seating position? If this were possible, then the cost would be manageable. Thanks for your thoughts. _______________________________ Music Hall MMF-7 Turntable w/ Goldring Eroica H MC Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CDP with 24 bit/192 KHz Upsampling Wright Sound WPP-100C Phono Stage JF Lessard Pantheon 6SN7 SRPP Preamp w/ RCA 5R4GY & Sylvania 6SN7 JF Lessard Horus Parafeed Cobalt 2A3 Monoblocks w/ Tung Sol 5687 & AVVT 2A3 1976 KCBR Klipschorns with ALK Crossovers Gear Online: Two Channel & Home Theater Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 Chris, first you should know that the rear wall of my room no longer has the large shield-like suspended diffusers on the rear wall as in the pics. Most of the rear wall is now treated with one layer of the burgundy Auralex DST112 shown in the same pic. This is 2 material. It is not 100% absorptive. The sound that isnt absorbed is diffused by the angled surfaces and/or the wall behind them. There are now also columns of Auralex MegaLENRD bass traps stacked in the rear corners. I found the Masonite polycylinders on the rear wall too reflective and close to the listening positions for the depth of my room. They were creating near-term reflections resulting in diluted imaging. The polycylinder diffusers are mainly on the front wall, and on the upper half of the side walls. The main disadvantage of the polycylinders is their depth. After bowing them adequately, you lose some space. The room can look and feel pushed in if the room isnt large enough. On the other hand they can be made rather inexpensively, can look very dramatic with proper lighting, and they are very efficient at diffusing midrange and treble frequencies. They also absorb more bass than midrange and treble acting to some extent as bass traps. If large and deep enough, they can also help to break up standing waves in the bass range. The RPG diffusers are rather interesting products, albeit not inexpensive as you mentioned, but they dont take up the room space as much either, although they are not quite as effective as the large polycylinders for the multiple reasons mentioned above. I am considering using them on the ceiling for the reasons youre asking about. This is by no means optimal but better than nothing. The first thing you would do is use the mirror reflection technique to locate the positions where the diffusers would be of most benefit for spot treatment. While sitting in the primary and secondary listening positions have someone hold a small mirror (about 6 wide) flat against the wall and ceiling, moving it around until you can see the midrange/treble speakers reflection in the mirror. Mark these locations on the wall and ceiling. Do this for all speakers and all combination of listening positions. These locations are where you want to place the RPG diffusers, or spot treat the ceiling/walls with any other diffusor or absorption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Thanks, Artto ... After reading through this long (and great) thread, I went over to the Auralex site and perused their product line. I know that both product lines (RPG and Auralex) aren't inexpensive, but they seem to generate a lot of performance for the dollar. I especially like the "101" downloadable primer which I have carried on my laptop for about six months now. I usually re-read it when I've got dead time on long flights. Is there something which steered you to the Auralex line as opposed to others, or do you believe they're fairly interchangeable and it comes down to personal preference? I see that you have some nice color matches with your burgandy-colored carpeting as well. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 ---------------- On 11/6/2004 9:22:07 AM Chris Robinson wrote: ---------------- On 12/7/2002 4:17:05 PM artto wrote: You might be interested to know that in my room’s original incarnation I had the speakers on the shorter wall & had lots more room depth behind me, “theater style”. While that may work in larger the sized spaces of theater/concert hall sizes, it doesn’t seem to be the choice for optimum audio performance in domestic environments. I know that goes against conventional thinking (but hey, who ever said PWK was conventional?), especially with home theater setups where people tend to want that long room dimension for “theater-like seating”. ---------------- .... And you're right, the orientation of his room is as you say: L and R speakers are on the short wall, with seating resembling the theater environment. The 45 deg toe-in on Klipschorns makes this "portrait" orientation impractical as I requires near field listening or false corners like DeanG and Edster have done. Ideally, I'd like to create a room that serves both 2-channel and multi-channel listening equally well. ---------------- Similar question here. I'm hoping on soon recuperating a room in the basement to serve as a theatre and get away room... but I'm still looking into seating orientation options. My limitation is if I want to share the experience with friends... you need enough room for two rows of seating. BUT I agree that with the 45deg toe in... Klipschorns (which I'm in the midst of closing a deal on) really need a relatively wide wall if you don't want to use them as headphones. What do you guys think about false corners like DeanG or Edster have? Anyone hear or experiment with a similar setup? I think it may be an interesting solution / alternative ... Before starting a new thread with my existing room.... I'm just trying to establish what my options are. Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 So Rob, what are your room dimensions? What kind of long wall do you have to work with? Our "get away room" objectives are similar ... music and movies. Because you and I both have Klipschorns (or almost), it would be a shame not to give them room to breathe. False corners do quite well, but they limit the sound field that they're firing into. I personally am hoping to create a room with enough breadth (at least 20') to let them air out. Plus, they're HUGE standing free, let alone adding false corners to them. If I planned on going "portrait" in the HT design, I'd just have a 7-Cornwall theater since they are smaller (free-standing) and would give a lot of sound field for the footprint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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