erdric Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 >>SVS are NOT overpriced. End of story.<< Truer words could not be said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 ProDJ101, uh, okay... How do you calculate your rate for performing at parties? Let's say I wanted to hire you to DJ a wedding for, oh, 6 hours - 7 PM to 1 AM on a Saturday night. How much would that cost? And if we evaluate that cost by looking at the cost of your raw materials and wear and tear on equipment, what markup would we get? When you look at a company like SVS, don't forget that the cost of the raw materials is only one component of the total cost of sales. You have a staff building these things, and that staff has (hopefully) a base salary, health insurance, some sort of 401K or other retirement plan, a beavy of taxes, you have R&D costs that must be recaptured, you have marketing and promotions and shipping and customer service and dealer support and warranty repairs and accountants and lawyers and inventory carrying charges and debt servicing and and and and and and and and..... Typically, when you look at the cost of components and want a quick estimate of the selling price, you apply a 4 to 1 ratio. Something that has $300 in component costs ought to price out at about $1,200 retail, unless you're talking Sony-scale quantities (lower retail) or Aston Martin level hand assembly (higher retail). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandern Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 I know SVS isn't sold at Circuit city, but other brands like Infinity and Polk are, and they are 2 respectable brands. I was talking to a friend of mine you used to be a manager at CC and she told me that audio equipment, especially speakers are the most marked up product they carry. She said some are marked up as much as 600%. I know that goes for almost every store around the country/world, not just CC. So yes they are overpriced, but so it every other speaker in the world. So compared to other speakers they are actually a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 As usual, Ray Garrison, you are right on the money... and if you don't spend it... you're not in business. I have a pair of the first dozen Ultra's ever built... and if I had to spend my time and energy to collect all the equivalent quality bits and pieces... even if I had the skill sets and equipment to bring the project to a professional finish... it would cost me way more than I paid SVS. I've built speaker enclosures from scratch... and have sampled the works of more than a few DIY type folks... but if your time is worth anything, building your own is far from cheap. And putting MDF on as endcaps is proof in itself that the internal pressures are not anything like those built up in an Ultra. I submit that the quality of woofs in the latest Ultra's are a cut above those most DIY's would use. And then there are the patented ports that squeeze an extra measure of dynamics out of the sub. Oh, yes, and all those custom made fittings are not exactly a cinch to find. If it really was all that easy to duplicate the finish and quality of an SVS Ultra... there would be a whole lot of foks building them and making all that money! Big speakers are heavy and take up a lot of space in a store... how much they sell for is not only a factor of what's inside but also how fast they sell for the space and financial cost of having them available to the public. As Ray correctly points out, too few people know the real cost of bringing a product to market and staying alive as a company. SVS represents a bigger bargain now than they are likely to be in years to come. The larger a company gets, the less likely its founders are to work for salaries that make minimum wage look like a real winner. Let us know, prodj101 when we can take advantage of your low cost 101-Ultras that perform up to SVS standards. Most people "in the know" think SVS is underpriced for their product... so you should really be able to corner a great market. Good luck... and stay in touch! -HornED PS: Maybe I should be more gentle... but building a quality product and bringing it to market without losing your sanity or your posterior is an area in which I have some expertise. Fortunately, such rash statements as you have made prodj101 are less likely as you gain experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted December 10, 2002 Author Share Posted December 10, 2002 well, after building a couple things (2 tube amps, speaker set, and another speak and tube amp in the works), I know a little bit about this too. Me and my bro are thinking of going into business for ourselves (selling on ebay or an online store), and building things only to order. That way, you don't need a staff, and can sell at just slightly over building cost (maybe %40-50 more) than materials. And as for ray garrison, I charge about 11 bucks an hour, which is VERY cheap in comparison to other guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted December 10, 2002 Author Share Posted December 10, 2002 but anywya, you're telling me that to buy the equivilant speakers of my DIY bookshelves, I would be facing about 1,300 to 1,600? the cost to build the pair was about 413 I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted December 10, 2002 Share Posted December 10, 2002 A real business has to pay for real costs like taxes, insurance, a building, tools, accounting costs, etc. If you are looking at using other peoples facilities and tools and not paying for them (like things that belong to your parents) you are not really setting up a meaningful business. Certainly, big Klipsch or little SVS could not survive on the plan that you are suggesting. So, now I understand why you think SVS costs are "astronomical"... you are not counting the real costs of being in business in the U.S.A. I am not trying to cut you down... and certainly, getting your feet wet in the business world is probably great experience... but not one that reflects a serious business plan... like the ones that would be required in an appropriate college MBA. Also, for $11 an hour you and your bro will be takikng the risk and liability of business entrepreneurs. I don't see any provision to sock away a contingency fund for bad times or unexpected losses. There are just a whole lot of very real factors that a real business requires to survive that cost real money. Taking care of ordinary business expenses and building in reasonable profitablility is required if you are going to secure outside capital in the form of loans or by selling stock. Why not start your quest by trying to make a set of reasonable assumptions and prove them out... rather than suggesting that a little company trying to make it is ripping off the world with outrages prices. To my knowledge, Ron and Tom did not make as much per hour their first year as you and your brother are intending to make on margins that, frankly, are not large enough to support even a parent subsidized business. A cardinal rule of successful business is not to buy a dog that can't hunt... or build a business that cannot attract capital on its own merits. While I wish you luck in your venture... I suggest that you give it some more thought. -HornEd PS: I once built a business division that had seventeen employees and grossed $12-14 million a month... it turned out to be a "cash cow" that funded many other adventures... but building that kind of business dynamic is far from average. I have also written a business plan that was lauded as the "best he had ever seen" by a nationally known economics professor and the founder of the nation's top "business incubator." Not a brag... just an indication that my concerns for your well being are legitemate and not motivated by any prejudice toward your age or experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted December 10, 2002 Author Share Posted December 10, 2002 woah woah woah, not only do we have all the tools, but we also aren't looking to make a living off this by any means! so no, we don't have to worry about rainy days and what not. This is really more of a thing just for fun, and if it takes off, it takes off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 Prod, It is just you........I don 't think I have read a single post criticizing the cost/performance/value of SVS.....These guys are doing the average audiophile/bassheads a favor giving us a product that no other mfg./retail can touch. You really need to think more before speaking/posting. If it wasn't for SVS you could be buying less performance for more money and you would NEVER get to talk or have the chance to talk to the owners of the company. Your post by its very nature is very American and exercises your right to free speech. However, may I suggest to you that you do your self a dis-service by making ignorant statements before doing your homework. Those two guys (Tom and Ron) are probably the smartest guys around as far as their business model goes. They have chosen to actively participate in the peer group (by virtue of their lurking in all of the forums/BB's) that loves their product as much as they do. They speak/write based on facts/data and are always going the extra mile for the customer. And BTW, guess what, I don't even own an SVS!!!!!!!!YET! I would love to have a pair of SVS Ultra's though. I actually just built my own DIY Tempest and I can't believe the amount of work required to build your own sub and it still cost me around $400 in materials. I would discourage you from starting your own business since you haven't learned rule #1 about sales and that is don't breathe a word about your competitors products....Focus on your products merits and give your customer some respect to make an informed decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlstrass Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 I don't think it's fair to compare DIY to commercially available equipment. With a proven design and some basic tools/skills I would hope that most could build something similar/better for less money. I was ready to purchase a pair of SVS subs last Spring, but decided to go the DIY route, as I enjoy the challenge of building things and seeing them "come to life" so to speak. For about $900 including amp my dual Tempest can't be touched by anything on the commercial market near that price range, but I wouldn't expect it to as I was free labor, no over-head, payroll, taxes, advertising, etc.... NOW compare SVS to all the other subs on the market and YES they're a great value price/performance wise. As for just being a tube, some MDF, wire, screws, and a speaker, take apart ANY sub and you'll find basically the same thing. There just isn't that much when it comes to hard components in a speaker, now design, theory, etc... is where it gets interesting. I had the pleasure of taking apart my KLF-30's last year to add bucking magnets and here's what I found: MDF, 16 guage wire, small cross-over, and decent looking drivers that could probably be bought for a few hundred dollars. Am I knocking Klipsch, hardly as I LOVE my Legends, but as stated before a LOT of the cost is research, design, testing, etc... to arrive at the finished product. P.S. If you really want to do some over-inflated price/performance comparisons pick apart Bose or any other mainstream audio company in your local B&M!! Single driver mini-speakers and 6 1/2" subs in a cardboard box for $2-3K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted December 11, 2002 Author Share Posted December 11, 2002 you need to wise up before you speak bloomis. If you'll read again, I said that they are cheap compared to other availible products, but not when you add up the actual cost of the building materials. The planning of a speaker isn't too difficult either. If you'll go on DIY boards, you'll see that many people have made much better products, for 4 times less money. I just think SVS are a little pricy considering all you're getting is a cardboard tube with a speaker in it. But than again, everything else is too! this is why I am going only DIY speaker from now on. At least until I have money to spend on the super speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 ProDJ... Why not get say 17" and 15" sonotubes and some fiberglass concrete and make a concerte sonotube. that is if cardboard just is not up to par with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted December 11, 2002 Author Share Posted December 11, 2002 sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 Hey Prodj, here is a good discussion forum to check out if your into DIY. http://www.madisound.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 prodj---- Thanks for stating the obvious, regarding the cost of the materials being used as a percentage of the overall costs. What other brilliant observations can you make about the business world. We all welcome your DIY limited edition speakers that will compete in both price, performance and build quality! Let us know when they are ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted December 11, 2002 Author Share Posted December 11, 2002 screw you too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieTuna Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Be careful prodj101, you are igniting yet another flamewar like the one you were heavily embroiled in about ~"music for bombing Iraq". During that one, you and your flames were stamped out and you laid there complaining that you were picked on and didn't start it. Well, here's fair warning from an observer-keep it on topic and out of the gutter. That way, regardless of your opinion, everyone will respect it. Hey, if you think you can build better cheaper, go for it. But, listen to what others have to say even if it's not what you want to hear. A sign of maturity and growth is being able to accept the other view for it's value; regardless of your age or wisdom. These forums are a goldmine of knowledge, experience and opinions. Take discretionary advantage of these free gifts and discard the rest. CT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 So far I have gone the path of buying a cheaper speaker instead of building one I do not mean cheap as in quality, I mean cheap as in what I payed for it. If I had the chance to build my own sub I propably would. As it stands I just buy cheap on ebay, someday I will make a monster sub that will rule all. BUWAHAAAHAAAHAA BUWAAHAAHAAAHAAAA Peace, Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikjohn Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 ProDj, I will place the first order. I want 2 SVS Ultra copies. Of course I will pay upon delivery. Please also provide proven specifications so I can compare them. Also what will my warranty be? Do you take Discover? So how much were you going to sell those for again? But wait, I'm not sure if I want to buy them yet. Can you please send me a picture of them with the specifications. Thanks, EJ "You can do it!" - Rob Schnieder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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