LaScala AL5 Noise

[OO1]

 sure can  ,   Sansui amps    0.003..or  0,005  or less  ,   do you need me to give you the model no 

[Coytee]

1 hour ago, Stephen Buck said:

Doesn’t that mean if you turn down the gain you’re effectively disabling all those watts you thought you paid for?

 

My understanding is it will ground everything and whatever is left, is the base noise level of the amp.  Just take (what I presume you might use) an old RCA wire.  Snip it in two.  Strip the leads on each half to short them together.  Put one into the Right/Left inputs and see (hear) what's left.

 

If you do this and hear the noise then as I understand, you'll never be able to get rid of it.  On the other hand, if it DOES "go away", then I'm not sure what your next step would be.  I'll leave that to those more learned than myself.

 

(could be just about anyone!)

 

 

[billybob]

Has watts so, turn the gain down if the hiss is a bother.

May not eliminate but can attenuate.

[Shakeydeal]

10 hours ago, OO1 said:

 sure can  ,   Sansui amps    0.003..or  0,005  or less  ,   do you need me to give you the model no 

Technically it’s still not zero. And I would venture a guess that they do measurements like most of the SS amps did, only at 1K. 
 

But the most important take away here is that ultra low distortion doesn’t = quiet. My last three tube amps were so quiet that if you put your ear next to the speaker you’d swear they weren’t even turned on. And I guarantee you that none of them has “0 distortion”.

 

OP

 

The problem with noise in a system is when a perfect storm comes together. Take a high efficiency speaker, add a high gain preamp and amp, with a high output source , all it takes is a little noise to wreak havoc. This is why I don’t like having gain in the preamp stage if I have enough voltage gain in the front end of the amplifier. If you add a high gain preamp you only throw most of it away with attenuation.

[henry4841]

12 hours ago, Stephen Buck said:

Doesn’t that mean if you turn down the gain you’re effectively disabling all those watts you thought you paid for?

  Payed for more watts than needed for sure but in this original poster's case he already had the extremely high end Pass Labs amplifier before purchasing speakers. I expect anyone with good enough hearing can hear something with ear to speaker. I have amps and like Shakey and cannot hear a thing but that does not mean others might. Guy at Pass Labs gave the best answer to the question. I would not give it any thought myself if one cannot hear anything, or practically nothing, a few feet away. It only annoys me when you can hear noise on a quite passage from my listening position. It may well be the OP has excellent hearing and others may not hear a thing. 

 

An old mechanic gave me a good answer when I was complaining to him about a rear end noise on a car. After he heard it he just said turn the radio louder and it will go away. 

 

[henry4841]

32 minutes ago, Stephen Buck said:

If OP has kids they will hear it.  My son noticed when I switched from old Sony STR-DE935 AVR to new Yamaha RX-A8A.  He can hear the noise floor of the Sony from the couch at 12’ on both my vintage Klipsch Chorus and the new AL5s, but he cannot hear the noise floor from either the Yamaha RX-A8A or the M-5000.  The room has 2 pair of Chorus and the AL5s so it’s very obvious is there is any noise from anything being surrounded by 6 high sensitivity horn tweeters.  Hiss used to bug me as a kid but honestly I hadn’t noticed the Sony noise.  Not sure if it increased with age or was always there. 

I have a grandson that can hear a dog whistle. No one else in the family can. He cringes when he hears it. 

[henry4841]

Remarkable high frequency hearing. 

[sixspeed]

The low watt Class A Pass amps seem to work best for Heritage of all Pass' designs. New McIntosh is very quiet as well. Something like a MC-152 if you want to stick Class AB would be a nice choice. The MA5200 I had, non-autoformer was very quiet and sounded wonderful, it's essentially the integrated version of the 152. A MC-152 or Bryston 2.5B3 would be on my personal shortlist if I were you. Both are direct competitors and priced the same in the $4800-5500 price point. Bryston has a 20 year warranty guarantee on all their analog gear. Yamaha I agree makes some very nice amps but most are integrated amps and their $10,000 flagship power amp was really designed in mind for a complete Yamaha 5000 series system with their NS-5000 speakers. If you want a warmer sound with arguably the nicest build quality in the industry with ultra low noise you should also give Accuphase Class A a look like the A-48 also priced the same as the Yamaha 5000.

 

All Bryston amps have adjustable gain settings for SE or XLR input and pro models even have trim pots on the back.

 

Amp pairing and digital front end electronics are even more critical on high efficiency speakers both for noise and how revealing they are showing off a particular components sonic characteristics for better or worse!

 

I agree with the above that the higher power A/B Pass Labs amps by default are designed more in mind for lower efficiency conventional "box" speakers. Although I didn't know they offered a custom factory service when ordered new to tailor the gain for the customer, I agree the more "devices" in the amplifiers output stage path, the more distortion and noise that can get in there that won't get on well with horns. Heritage is super revealing of the front end electronics and can highlight the sonic differences between amp types and the house sound of various amp makes.

[OO1]

13 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

Technically it’s still not zero.

I would venture a guess that they do measurements like most of the SS amps did, only at 1K.  

nope , 0.005   is 0.00 in mathematical terms ,

FYI  ,   the measurements  of no more than 0.005 per cent total harmonic distortion ... of the Sansui AU-D11  amplifier’s rating of 120 watts per channel into 8-ohm loads  is from 10 to 20,000 Hz  and definitely not at  1KHz ,    1-2 wpc  with this  120wpc amp  with  Heritage speakers    will have 0  distortion  .

 

 

[Marvel]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:19 AM, henry4841 said:

I have a grandson that can hear a dog whistle

I had a dog that could whistle a couple Doc Watson songs.

[OO1]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:19 AM, henry4841 said:

I have a grandson that can hear a dog whistle 

is he also  left-handed ?

[KT88]

On 7/8/2023 at 1:41 AM, OO1 said:

nope , 0.005   is 0.00 in mathematical terms ,

FYI  ,   the measurements  of no more than 0.005 per cent total harmonic distortion ... of the Sansui AU-D11  amplifier’s rating of 120 watts per channel into 8-ohm loads  is from 10 to 20,000 Hz  and definitely not at  1KHz ,    1-2 wpc  with this  120wpc amp  with  Heritage speakers    will have 0  distortion  .

 

 

Randy, I'm not so sure if a transistor amp makes less distortion at very low power output than at high power. The distortion of small signals has often been the Achilles heel of larger transistor amps. It is not a linear relationship with class AB amps. Hence the name "First Watt" by N. Pass....as a solution to this problem. Quad goes a different way to solve the problem, but it was recognised as an important source of distortion. Also many very hot running Class A sand amps are in this relationship with merit.
The issue addresses not only quiet late evening listening on high efficiency loudspeakers. Rather, no matter how loud you listen, there are always those moments when a sound appears out of the silence, or when the sound disappears back into the silence. And that's where the effects of greater distortion always affect the listening experience.

[henry4841]

One would like to think the makers of those high power amps would have corrected this problem at low watt usage but I have my doubts. Why, because those that buy those mega watt amps will probably be using them on inefficient speakers which do not wake up till they see a lot of watts. In other words the market for high power amps is low efficient speakers. I would like to think that the high end audiophile amps will have low numbers at low watts but it could very well be not the case. Our speakers are perfect for low wattage tube amps. Most audiophiles with other speakers will not be able to use or hear the wonderful sound SET amplifiers make with our speakers. On my LaScala's, in SS, I look for a well respected 25 watt or less amplifier. Naturally the offerings from Firstwatt are perfect with our speakers but do not expect .0001 numbers from Firstwatt. Nelson designs Firstwatt, most of the time, for a little 2nd harmonic and a touch of third which is considered by many to be the ideal amplifier and sounds the best. 

[OO1]

1 hour ago, KT88 said:

Randy, I'm not so sure if a transistor amp makes less distortion at very low power output than at high power. The distortion of small signals has often been the Achilles heel of larger transistor amps. It is not a linear relationship with class AB amps. Hence the name "First Watt" by N. Pass....as a solution to this problem. Quad goes a different way to solve the problem, but it was recognised as an important source of distortion. Also many very hot running Class A sand amps are in this relationship with merit.
The issue addresses not only quiet late evening listening on high efficiency loudspeakers. Rather, no matter how loud you listen, there are always those moments when a sound appears out of the silence, or when the sound disappears back into the silence. And that's where the effects of greater distortion always affect the listening experience.

Heinz  ,   the AB class SS amp  discussed  here  use a distortion  reducing technique which produces no more than 0.005 per cent total harmonic distortion  or less   , with a rating of  120 wpc   into 8-ohm loads   from 10 to 20,000 Hz   , therefore at full load  ,  and yes  the  SS  amp  make  0  distortion at only a few watts output  .

 

  klipsch use  +1000 watts Rotel Michi amps for the Jubilee for the same reasons  , the question is not that the  H Jubilee requires 1000 wpc  amps to sound right  , but rather that the selected  amp   produces quasi nil distortion at  lower output  , in order for the H Jubilee (  bi-amped DSP ) to sound so SS clean 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[henry4841]

1 hour ago, OO1 said:

Heinz  ,   the AB class SS amp  discussed  here  use a distortion  reducing technique which produces no more than 0.005 per cent total harmonic distortion  or less   , with a rating of  120 wpc   into 8-ohm loads   from 10 to 20,000 Hz   , therefore at full load  ,  and yes  the  SS  amp  make  0  distortion at only a few watts output  .

And here is the problem Randy I believe is your name, distortion is stated at full power and not at .5watts with no mention of distortion at .5 watts. This is the way class A/B PP amplifiers with lots of power have been rated for as long as I can remember so your hypothesis of zero distortion is not accurate. That and zero distortion is not reality with any electronic product. There is always going to be some distortion. Another factor to consider is PP A/B distortion is odd distortion which is very unpleasant whereas even distortion is pleasurable for many. What is meant by even and odd for example is let's say the signal is 1Khz. Even distortion is going to be 2Khz 2nd harmonic and 4khz the 3rd harmonic distortion. Odd is just the opposite. All this is just technical stuff because in reality all the better SS PP A/B are going to sound just fine. The thing is though a SET tube or class A amp from Firstwatt is going to sound better. That is if one has the hearing to compare. Let's face it guys, many are just fine listening to Bose. 

[OO1]

1 hour ago, Stephen Buck said:

Klipsch demonstrates Jubilee on all sorts of amps. 

really 

[OO1]

20 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

  your hypothesis of zero distortion is not accurate.  

 sure it is   , and it 's  based on an actual  SS Amplifier /no hypothesis /real facts , 

 

 

[henry4841]

37 minutes ago, OO1 said:

 sure it is   , and it 's  based on an actual  SS Amplifier /no hypothesis /real facts , 

 

 

Sorry and not go argue but if one knows anything about electronics you would understand zero distortion is not possible. There is always going to be measurable distortion in any electronic product. Electrons going to a straight piece of wire will have distortion along with the signal. I have never heard of any test equipment, used to accurately determine distortion ,with zero distortion. Just not possible in reality. If someone can find a distortion analyzer with zero distortion I will be open to see the ad or product. Does not exist. Lab equipment gets the numbers down really low but some is always going to be there. I am talking 5 and 6 figure tests equipment. They will proudly display their distortion numbers which can be extremely low only measurable with better test equipment. 

 

 

[OO1]

39 minutes ago, Stephen Buck said:

YouTube much?  Dealer much?   

hell no , 1st time I hear of youtube   , tx for the tip  

[henry4841]

The thing is in the above example of electrons flowing through a single resistor as a byproduct of electrons going through a simple resistor there will be trace amounts of inductance and capacitance as well. This is considered distortion because the only thing you want a resistor to do is slow down the flow of electrons. Not enough byproducts to be a concern in a simple resistor but it is there. Where such becomes important is when dealing with active components mostly, tubes or transistors. Both can have significant amounts of capacitance between the leads which can be detrimental. Amounts are stated in the data sheets of tubes and transistors. When you start with parts with distortion you are just going to add more distortion with all the other components. The trick is to keep the numbers down where it does not effect the sound much if any. I personally prefer an amplifier with some 2nd harmonics and a touch of 3rd as the famous designer Jean Hirago stated as best decades ago. Nelson Pass agrees so I am in good company.