Ray Garrison Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 jt1stcav, It is neither a typo nor has the reponse changed. The bass response is determined by the geometry of the horn, for the most part, and this has not changed since Belle was first pencilled. In a different thread some time back, there were some questions raised about the varience between the current specs and the older specs. Klipsch answer was pretty much that the *measurement* tolerences have changed (+/- 5 dB and +/- 3 dB are significantly different), measurements may be taken under slightly different conditions, and the newer specs should be considered to be a more accurate indication of how the speaker performs under real world conditions. If you took a 1983 Belle and a 2003 Belle and measured them under the same conditions with the same techniques, they'd measure the same (minor differences in crossover geometry and such aside.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 jt1stcav, Let's not forget that opinions are being stated. You, or AL K, or anyone else is entitled to love SS. The "forget SS" statement is my opinion. I also don't use a sub for my 2 channel SET system with my Belles. I don't call it "Bull****" for those who do. I merely state my opinion. Al K does not believe in "burn in" nor anything other than measured results from what I've read, but I would not call that bull**** either, even though I DO believe in burn in and audio qualties not necessarily measured, along with many other very prestigious people in the audio world. So I don't believe AL K is the authority on amplification that you do. For you to think that only SS can handle your type of music is the real bull****. I don't really wish to engage in a pissing contest with you, or whose system plays the loudest(yeah, I'm doing 115db, etc...) contest. MY preference is, no feedback tube amplification for my Heritage Belles. In lieu of that, I'll take my 14 wpc Eico to handle the rest. Your Mileage May Vary! Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 jazman, I think your missing the point here- Moon,being the newbie he is,is absorbing all this new info like a sponge.He ask more questions than my 2 year old daughter (kiddin' ya Moon-its really the only way to learn) and when he hears someone with more experience in audio like yourself make a comment like "forget Solid State" he's probably thinking to himself "Great,now I gotta spring for a tube amp to make my $1600.00 dollar speakers really sing-should I opt for Push Pull,SET,Vintage,New,what about tube qualtity?what brand of Caps sound the warmest,UGH this is tougher than I thought"! This is not always the case.Although finding a SS amp to match up to his new Belles might be a little time consuming,there are many options to try. Andys HK-430,any McIntosh, or my recommended Yamaha M series amps for starters all are warm sounding on Klipsch without the typical SS downfalls. This is why I asked Moon his musical preferences,to see what he liked to maybe get an idea of where to steer him. I can see both sides of the coin here and really do like a tube amp setup but to say its the end-all is just not being realistic. Jeff PS: I think Craigs and Deans SPL contest is just a little good natured ball busting as I know both of these guys are into more than maxium volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 jazman, Did I not say that I also agree that vacuum tube amplification, whether it's a pair of SET Moondogs or a PP EICO or H.H. Scott, is prefered by myself and many others for Heritage Series loudspeakers? Just because I took offense to your statement "Forget SS" doesn't mean that I only prefer SS over tube amplification...that's not the case at all! Yes, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I did not bash vacuum tube amps...I didn't say "Forget tubes!" And I only used Al K. as a reference because he owns a MC250 amp (I don't particularly care for heavily modified Belles like his, but I never knocked them either). And I too, do not use a subwoofer for my simplified audio system! And as you stated: "For you to think that only SS can handle your type of music is the real bull****." Did I say that? No...what I said was: "And I agree that tube amps (PP and/or SET) do wonders for the sound of any Heritage loudspeaker, but to say, "Forget SS" (jazman) is "Bull$hit"...tell that to all the harman/kardon 450 and McIntosh MC250 owners..." Really now, I just didn't like your statement..."Forget SS". Why did you say that? If anyone should be upset, it should be ME! I was simply defending the SS owners you may have offended (like me, who also loves tube gear, even if I don't own it...yet)! But I ain't got no beef towards you, jazman...you're cool! No pissin' here! And your statement is still Bull$hit and uncalled for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 jt1stcav, I believe one of Moons questions was about how to best power his Belles in the "future". The "forget ss" statement was based on spending a few hundred dollars to get "high quality amplification". Though I have not heard the HK models that are the current ss low buck fav, I do know that "104db" Belles are much less forgiving than Heresys or Cornwalls of the amplification source. I don't know of, maybe you do, of quality SS choices at the same cost as Scott's, Fisher's, Eico's that will do justice to a pair of Belles. BTW, I have no beef with AL K, you, or anyone else who uses SS. My statement was not bull****, and that's the story. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 ---------------- On 4/1/2003 9:42:32 PM JCturboT wrote: Moon,being the newbie he is,is absorbing all this new info like a sponge.He ask more questions than my 2 year old daughter (kiddin' ya Moon-its really the only way to learn) Jeff ---------------- Na, man non taken at all. It is true. I ask boatloads of questions and many times I ask the same question over and over to get a differnt perspective. My wife gets on my butt about that, saying I ask the same question over. But really it's may be the same question, but generally I come at it from a different angle to try and get the different perspective. Non the less, I am almost as lost today as I was a month ago. I think I have a tube amp picked out, for some reason that Jolida keeps catching my eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry N. Cruse Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 ---------------- On 3/31/2003 9:38:20 PM JCturboT wrote: Moon, Don't know if you been asked this yet-what is your music preferrence? Jeff ---------------- Jeff, I hate to think that source material preferrence is a factor, but you have a good point. Having owned CWs from 1973, I do have a good feel for the sound. In earlier days I sported Khorns flank, 2LaS center, 2LaS back.In those days, that system was considered "big time audio". So back to personal preferrence. I now use 4 CWs and 4 Mod-H. God help me, I am addicted to the "boot in the chest" of the CW. I spoke to a Klipsch engineer about 4CWs vs 2 Cornerhornes and his reply was "no comparison". I took that as a positive comment. Am I addicted to bass reflex distortion? Some here will say yes. Back to the Bell. It is a furniture grade, cut down LaS. A lesser speaker than LaS. The top end and 400 mid sound wonderfully clean in the LaS.(Opps a little less in Bell)...But the bottom end of Bells & LaS make the overall sound "hollow" to my ear. Yep, they are quick...But they just dont get down there. VERY FORWARD. (great projection in a theater) But just dont get down there. Having said all this...I am opening myself up to ridicule with this statement...Properly amplified, 4CWs will stomp the guts out of any 2 cornerhorns. Anyone? CW people help me out! Back to the point. Cornwalls being voiced like Pauls cornerhorn...If you like the horn sound...for two channels,Cornwall is the only Klipsch product that I would accept if I couldnt have the cornerhorns. Choose between 2Khorns and 4 CWs....Well........ I.B. Slammin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry N. Cruse Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 ---------------- On 3/31/2003 9:38:20 PM JCturboT wrote: Moon, Don't know if you been asked this yet-what is your music preferrence? Jeff ---------------- Jeff, I hate to think that source material preferrence is a factor, but you have a good point. Having owned CWs from 1973, I do have a good feel for the sound. In earlier days I sported Khorns flank, 2LaS center, 2LaS back.In those days, that system was considered "big time audio". So back to personal preferrence. I now use 4 CWs and 4 Mod-H. God help me, I am addicted to the "boot in the chest" of the CW. I spoke to a Klipsch engineer about 4CWs vs 2 Cornerhornes and his reply was "no comparison". I took that as a positive comment. Am I addicted to bass reflex distortion? Some here will say yes. Back to the Bell. It is a furniture grade, cut down LaS. A lesser speaker than LaS. The top end and 400 mid sound wonderfully clean in the LaS.(Opps a little less in Bell)...But the bottom end of Bells & LaS make the overall sound "hollow" to my ear. Yep, they are quick...But they just dont get down there. VERY FORWARD. (great projection in a theater) But just dont get down there. Having said all this...I am opening myself up to ridicule with this statement...Properly amplified, 4CWs will stomp the guts out of any 2 cornerhorns. Anyone? CW people help me out! Back to the point. Cornwalls being voiced like Pauls cornerhorn...If you like the horn sound...for two channels,Cornwall is the only Klipsch product that I would accept if I couldnt have the cornerhorns. Choose between 2Khorns and 4 CWs....Well........ I.B. Slammin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Fair enough, jazman! Let's just let it go, and help out m00n as much as possible (from both angles). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Moon, If I were you I would get those Belles up and going with whatever means of amplification you have and go from there-that way you can establish where you need to go from that point. Who knows,you my find yourself liking your RF7s more than your newly acquired Belles and decide to sell (althought I doubt it,but who knows right?). I think what Jazman is trying to do (and correct me if I wrong here) is steer you towards the goal of attaining the best in tubes- SET and this is exactly where most people with tubes ultimately end up.There are alot of people who swear by SET as the truest possible sound. But...there are also many here who have stopped at their vintage Push Pulls-the Scotts,the Eicos,and the Dynaco to name a few and couldn't be happier. Too bad Kelly (Mobile Homeless as well as several other names as of late )is not here to chime in,he would steer you better than I. Then there are those in the SS camp-who also couldn't be happier with their systems,myself included,and the best part was it was in my possesion all along. It all boils down to what sounds right to you.Go out and experiment,visit the audio shops in your area and arrange for an in-home audition if possible.You will talk to some people who totally despise Klipsch and horns as well as tubes.Take it for what it is-someones elses opinion and go from there. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Terry, I know EXACTLY what you mean here. I owned my Cornwalls for two years before I purchased my Klipschorn this past year so I had a some time with both of them together to experiment. When I first got the Klipschorns hooked up I (along with several friends) thought they were lacking in the bass department-especially compared to my Corns.At one point I actually thought of selling my K-horns and keeping my Cornwalls. But, as time went by and I had more listening time to compare the two I chose the Klipschorns,just cleaner across the board. But I know what you mean-the Cornwall does have that Slam Factor in the bass compared to the Klipschorns Horn bass. Jeff PS:My Cornwalls are now residing with their new owner in Germany no less! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 JCturboT Yeah I plan on giving them a fair audition. But, even with one blown driver, I think I have a good feeling of what they are going to sound like. Ultimatly, I have a feeling I am going to end up feeling like Terry does, that they just don't have the nice deep bass sound. Which kinda is dissapointing because I really Really REALLY like the mids and highs of the belles. Eh, we will see. I want to remain optimistic that when I get my new drivers this week that I will be impressed. Plus I really need to find out what tube setup will draw as much bass out of them as possible. DeanG said that tubes will basically cause the bass to stick around a bit longer than SS. I hope he is right. My biggest worry though is that I will spend gobs of money on tube gear only to never get the sound I want out of the belles. Must find a place that will allow me to audition tube gear. I can't remember who it was, I think Ed, but they said that it sounded like I was looking for the Holy Grail. Eh.... Is that so bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 TNC, I'm flattered how much you love the sound of your 4 Cornwalls. I can't complain about my pair (and the Mac amp seems the best SS matchup for the CW's I've come across so far). I'm impressed with the "boot in the chest" quality that my CW's produce with pipe organ music, and once I move my entire system into my larger formal living room, I'm sure they'll sing even more clearer than they do now. But I'd be a lier if I didn't admit how much I really love the tonal qualities of the Klipschorns! I've heard 4 Klipschorns in a huge music room that also housed a huge residence 4/23 Marr & Colton theatre pipe organ! These 4 Khorns were in each corner of this impressive room, each pair powered by 2 Carver M-500t power amps! What a glorious sound these 4 walnut beauties produced (of course, this massive room, with its vaulted wood beam ceiling, sounded just as "alive" when playing a recording of this organ as did the instrument itself when being played live by an organist). Granted, if the owner of the Khorns had owned 4 CW's instead (or even 4 Belles and/or La Scalas for that matter), I just may be as impressed with their overall sound. But I never heard a more life-like presentation from any system anywhere than I did coming from those 4 Klipschorns in that 2-channel system...period! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 m00n, where do you live? in California? I'm in Az. Here's why I ask: after you get the driver situation straightened out and have some time in listening to the Belle's on your H-K SS I would be willing to discuss making a freshened up Scott 222C available to you temporarily. This would give you a chance to audition tubes without blowing a grand on new stuff. You would have to cover insured shipping both ways, probably $40-$50 or so. I've got this thing hooked up to a pair of LaScalas now and it sounds pretty nice. It's had Craig's cap, rectifier and resistor tune up performed by me. I'm not married to it and don't have my self-image tied to it so it's not going to hurt my feelings if you crank it up and say "Ugh". I do think you need enough listening time on your Belles with your H-K to get used to the style of sound they produce. Then you'll have something to base a comparison on. Let me know what you think. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share Posted April 1, 2003 Tom, Sounds good. However I am in Oregon, Portland area actually. California? How did you come up with Cali? Ed made a nice offer to me along the same lines. I really appreciate it, but as I told him, I am always very worried about something like this, I would hate to hurt your baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 ---------------- On 4/1/2003 11:02:14 PM m00n wrote: DeanG said that tubes will basically cause the bass to stick around a bit longer than SS. I hope he is right. ---------------- As I've said before, I don't think you will find the Belles to have the bass you want nor do I think they provide the best sound for your room. I make these insensitive comments as a balance to all the pro-Belle opinions and because they are my opinion based on listening to LaScalas w/SET amps, reading how you really liked the boomy bass of your old low price speakers from long ago and in looking at your pictures. I like all the features of the lascala/Belle but I too miss those deeper drum kicks I remember from all my days in live music clubs. I also don't think vacuum tubes will cure your bass complaints...I agree with Dean's comments that transitors provide more force and control for a faster bass where tubes allow the bass to "stay around" but I think you would like lower frequency, too. Putting the Belles in corners (huge improvement for me) with more distance might be a cure and if you had a different space I think you would have a better chance of getting more enjoyment. I too find them to be my favorite looking speaker and really wanted them in the beginning. Do you like the mids and highs of the Belles better than your RF7's? I've found these Heritage speakers require a strong focus on quality source (ie Rega Planet, Card Deluxe audio card, audiophile TT), quality pre-amp (perhaps ideally tube technology), and then quality amplification. Consumer grade AVRs and DVD players do make for "skull piercing" (words from Kelly) sounds at 80db or higher (I'm more forgiving at lower volume). At times it's enough to make you run out and get the popular Denon 3803 AVR and Paradigm Studio 100 setup, but there is something in the sound of Heritage speakers that just leaves those popular cone speakers a little lifeless (especially the European ones)....Is it the dynamic blooming soundstage of the live Klipsch sound? When I listen to instrumentals of RUSH 2112--especially the drums--I just don't find that energy elsewhere. With better sources and pre-amplification I hope to cure the harsh and fatiguing sound...or I have to keep the volume in the 70's. This is not really an issue with DVD movies. I might also add that the search for a pre-amp with phono is enough to send me to an integrated box like the Scott. I'm still too cheap to drop over $1k on a pre-amp, but maybe it's just a matter of time before I end up with the Khorns, Moondogs, and maybe a Cary 98. Check out the Wrigth Audio Royale.... http://www.wrightaudio.com/ a beautiful piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Is it accidental that 99% end up using tubes to run their horns? Not just here either, but the world over. Three years ago, most of here were using SS. I was using a tube preamp, but 200 watts of Luxman on my RB-5's! With the exception of Jeff, I can't think of one single person who has gone back to SS. I still think the problem there was not having an active preamp driving the Manley Stingray. Tubes get you closer to a harmonically 'correct' sound. There will be texture and richness. If you want to hear what Marshalls sound like -- reproduce the sound with the same technology that makes a Marshall sound like a Marshall. Personally, I think you'll be fine on the bass. C'mon man, your missing a horn loaded 15" driver! You'll get some natural room gain, and 90% of the music you'll probably play ain't going to go down past 40Hz anyways. Your ears will adjust. You're trading some slam for detail (actually hearing the individual bass notes). The pitch will be right and it will have great pace. Quit second guessing your choice -- the Belles are the bomb. Now go get yourself a Scott 229a or 299b. Have Craig work it over, and be done with it. You'll have tube rectification, plenty of power, tone controls, a balance knob, and a phono section. Four out of the five things just mentioned you will not get with a Jolida. Once you've seen the makeup of a Scott, you'll understand why no one builds anything like them anymore. A $600 investment gets you $2500 or more worth of tube integrated. Get settled in, rope caulk the squawker, clean up the wiring, get some decent tubes -- and live happily ever after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Dam guys Maybe i should keep the tubes and SS hooked up to the same speakers! I have the Cj tube system, tube pre amp front of house now, And in the rear i have the H/K 430 on the other set of k-horns! Maybe this is what we all should do, LOL Just double your fun! Things have come up, me keeping 4 k-horns might change, room, and kid issues! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 m00n, are you working at one of the intel fabs up there? I grew up in Ore and have lived in Portland, Hillsboro, Lake Oswego. Reason I asked about location is that I think it's easier to get stuff to survive shipping if it's a shorter trip. If you were in NYK I would have more reservations about shipping. Think it over, offer stands. You've already got too much nice Reference stuff for me to worry about you breaking something. The only sort of touchy part of these is the speaker wire screws, they're too close together for some modern terminals. I'll throw in a pair of wires with suitable terminals already on them, how long do they need to be? Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 kjohnsonhp -- get something like a used AE-3 ($400 or less) in front of that Dynaco -- and you can live happily after too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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