Belles & Hafler Confession

[peterbwreal]

All right, I'll confess: I'm using a Hafler DH-110 pre-amp and DH-500 power amp (255 w/channel) to run my Belles. The Hafler stuff is a remnant from the days when I was running less efficient Klipsch speakers, but I've had the Hafler equipment for 16 almost troublefree years, and it was almost ten years old when I bought it. From what I read on this forum I'm doing almost everything wrong (except using Klipsch speakers) and using about 235 w/channel too many (and - Yegads - no tubes!). Nevertheless, I cannot turn the volume past about 10 o'clock without the cat wanting out, and the Belles sound GREAT: clean highs, solid/tight bass. Reading this forum I developed a certain amount of solid state guilt, so I asked my repairman about tube amps and their "warm sound". He says the "warm sound" is distortion. What am I doing wrong? Who do I believe?

Thanks - Peter

[Deang]

If I'm running a 20 watt tube amp, and am only using 10 watts, and not going into clipping, and enjoying my nice 'warm' sound -- what 'distortion' am I listening to?

The 'warm' designation is only in comparison to the steely hard sound of most solid state. Good tube amps actually just sound 'natural' and harmonically correct.

Why don't you ask him about the crossover distortion solid state amps exhibit? Oh yeah, I forgot -- they don't 'measure' that.

Ask him why solid state amp specifications are rated while "at full output".

[jdm56]

Dean, Dean, Dean...You've gone over to the Dark Side, haven't you!

[tubelion]

Hello Peter,

I understand your feeling.

I am also guilty of using 10W Jadis 300B which use two WE300B, I bought them when I use other speaker.

I always want to have a single tube single ended tube amplifier that I can have better and cleaner sound, much cheaper to run only one 300B too, to the extent, I post a question in the asylum- can I convert my Jadis to run one tube only.

Why? Because my Belle needs 3W to driver it, and it is the first watt that really matter.

I may buy a 45 amplifier one day.

Try it yourself.

Tubelion

[JCturboT]

Peter,

Your not doing anthing wrong-if everything sounds fine to you you've chosen the right combo.

There are a lot of people on this Forum who dislike Solid State (especially with Klipsch) and while there truely are some really bad examples of SS out there I'm sure there are just as many tube amps out there that are equally as bad.

I am in the same boat as you-running a high powered SS amp (260 watt Yamaha) and it has in my humble opinion,bested everthing I put I have tried in my system on both my Klipschorns and my prior Cornwalls.

Now, I rarely ever go past 50 watts and the most of my average listening doesn't go above 20 watts so in a way it is overkill but headroom is never a bad thing and as a added bonus its been paid for long ago as I've owned it since 1987.

In the end all that counts is it sounds good to YOUR ears.

Jeff

[JohnA]

Peter,

You're not doing anything wrong at all. A good amp is a good amp. Good ones should have no "sound" of their own. If your system sounds good, keep it.

OTOH, tube amps do have some advantages. The distortion they DO produce is euphonic (pleasing) and when clipping do not chop off the wave form as sharply as a SS amp will, so don't sound as hard (the distortion produced in clipping is also mostly euphonic). This feature allows a listener to tolerate quite a bit of clipping, thereby creating the impression that a tube watt is greater than a SS watt. I believe the "soft" clipping of a tube amp is more a product of the limited supersonic frequency response of the output transformer than of the tube itself. On top of that, tube amps naturally produce less noise than SS amps, believe it or not. IEEE magazine compared simple tube and SS circuits buit as nearly identical as possible and found tube circuits produced less noise AND distortion than the SS circuits.

Tube amps are NOT bad in and of themselves, but are not necessarily better than SS amps either. The results come from execution. My limited experience with tubes has been that tube amps have a fuzzy, soft, or out of focus sound.

A tube amp should not sound "warm". If it does, it does not have a flat frequency response curve.

[peterbwreal]

Thanks for the response by everyone, I feel better now.

I also remember going to a psych professor's house in the early sixties to listen to his fancy new stereo system. There was something wrong with his hearing and he had the bass way down and the treble way up. It sounded terrible (to me). When I pointed out that he had the controls all wrong, his response was "Screw you, it sounds good to me, and I'm the one that paid for it!"

Peter

[Deang]

I agree with everyone here. I did say 'most' solid state -- and there is quite a bit of solid state I really like. I especially agree with Jeff on the headroom thing.

I only use a 20 watt tube amp on the Cornwalls simply because I never really drive them that loud. If I did -- I would opt for 60 to 80 watts of ultralinear, or a good solid state amp with a tube preamp.

[Colin]

The following generalizations between tube and SS amplifiers are commonly held tweaking audiophile beliefs:

Please note that the total part of Harmonic Distortion is made of various parts. It also matters where the THD measurement is taken. Tube amplifiers typically have low amounts of THD at low power (where big old horns excel). They also have different kinds of distortion than SS amplifiers and have more THD overall. Yet, tube amplifiers have a harmonic distortion of an order (even harmonics?) said to be soft, gentle, and realistic (just like the harmonics of natural acoustic instruments). Tube amplifiers are usually effected by wild or low loudspeaker impedance extremes, so that their combined frequency response looks more like the loudspeakers undulating impedance hills than the amplifiers straight-line chart. Tube amplifiers usually have very fast attack (rise) times compared to SS amplifiers. The leading edge of a reproduced note can sometimes approach the shape of the actual note. Tube amplifiers often decay quicker though. They do not have the oomph to hold the curve of the note or sustain the peak. Tube amplifiers form the peak of a note closer to the actual shape. They store energy in their tubes and pump out about five times more current than their meager wattage rating indicates! They excel at sine wave formations that look more like natural sounds.

All SS amplifiers are rated at the low THD point of their power curves. Yet, they often have as much THD at low power as they do at their high power (clipping) extremes. This which means that for super-sensitive Klipsch big old horns (95 dB/w/m), they are often putting out lots of THD. SS amplifiers also have harmonic distortion of an order (odd harmonics?) said to be harsh and unrealistic (not like natural acoustic instruments). SS amplifiers are usually NOT effected by wild or low impedance extremes, their combined frequency response looks more like the amplifiers flatter, more accurate response curve than the loudspeakers chart. While SS amplifiers usually have slower attack compared to tube amplifiers, they do not decay as quickly. They do have the oomph to hold the curve of the note. SS amplifiers form square peaks for the notes, they only have so much to give and then it is gone (hard clipping). SS amplifiers store very little energy in their capacitors and can only pump out as much current as their design and the wall outlet allows. They excel at square wave formations that look mathematically ideal.

Bottom line: Apples and oranges. In my opinion, the best salad uses both.

Tubes for the critical mid-range and sparkling high-end with super-sensitive big old horns; active SS powered subwoofers for the demanding impedance of the sub-bass regions.

[middlecreekguy]

It is interesting that a lot of SS manufacturers advertise that their amps have a tube like sound. Makes this Onkyo owner ponder quiet a bit. Especially since I have Cornwalls on the way.

[tillmbil]

I run my Forte II's with a SS Yamaha M-80 pushing 250 a channel. I love the sound. Prior to I was runninng them through my Yamaha Rxv992 at 85 watts. What a difference. However, I have been searching Audiogon for a tube amp just to try. I like the Dynaco ST70 or the Scott 299. ANybody have a suggestion. Will I like the tube amp better? My listening is 70%HT and 30%rock/jazz.

[TBrennan]

Peter---Pay no attention to the New Orthodoxy that horns must be used with tubes, it's a bunch of bull****. I've been a horny for over 30 years and used a variety of amps and preamps, both tube and SS. And I've had good and bad sounding examples of both. One of the best sounding setups I had was LaScalas with a Dynaco 400 amp and a Dynaco Pat-5 preamp, both SS. That rig was smooth and had an image so deep it went out into the street. No doubt there are 10 times as many KHorns driven by McIntosh and Crown SS as by tubes. It's just that those guys ain't vocal or obsessive.

It's also not true that high efficiency horn speakers don't need high power, in fact they need high power if you want to listen at loud levels. I used the entire 200 watts per channel of my big Dynaco when listening to stuff like Rush, UFO and Mountain at realistic levels, this with 104db LaScalas. Now if you don't need that kind of reproduction you don't need high power but if you want realistic portrayal of some forms of music you do.

[chickey]

I'm a closet high wattage guy as well, but don't admit to it too often in public, mostly because I fear the tube guys might pummel me their caps and triodes.

I've got my Chorus II's hooked up to a 300 watt/channel Carver Lightstar. The sound is smooth and neutral, even at higher volume levels. I've heard good tubes and bad solid state, and vice-versa, often with little correlation to the price tag. As many have already pointed out, it's how it sounds to you that matters. In my case, the Lightstar and Chorus combo makes music (as opposed to noise), and that's what counts. Plus I always have a spare power source if I need to do some arc welding around the house...

C

[peterbwreal]

I find this discussion very interesting, and pretty much what I expected. I remember a very similar controversy when CDs replaced vinyl. There was a lot of complaining about the harsh and unrealistic sound, particularly in the upper spectrum. I retrospect, I think we all got used to the sound of CDs. For example, I recently found an old vinyl of Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue", which I also have on CD. Ignoring the scratches and pops, I can't believe how flat and dead the record now sounds compared to the CD. I'd bet the record didn't sound as good as the CD when it was new - but please, lets not go off on a vinyl vs. CD tangent. Peter

[middlecreekguy]

That`s another thread....don`t get me started.

[Cut-Throat]

Peter,

All I can tell you is get a tube amp and listen. I have a Van Alstine SS in a Hafler chassis. I also have plenty of tube amps. I like the tube amps. I like the SS also. But the tube amps are like a finer wine. So I'm a tube guy.

[v3spitfire]

TBrennan has it right. If you like LOUD music, heavy techno, hard rock, big, clean as possible watts are the way to go. Although what about running a descent ss amp to the woofers and tubes to the tweeter/midgrange area...Now we may be talking the best of both worlds. I now have a weekend project.

[rtaylor]

Sorry to disagree but I've done alot of A_B with friends comparing cd and records and 90% of the time they will pick the record as the cd.To them it sounds better.The volumes were matched.I'm not getting down on cd's,listen to them most of the time.Just an observation.

[middlecreekguy]

You are correct I`m "shure". Vinyl sounds excellent as does some CD`s.

[J M O N]

This is an easy question to answer. Believe your ears!