Laser turntable - play LPs without a needle

[Al Klappenberger]

Hi analog lovers,

Here's an LP lovers dream. It plays LPs using 5 laser beams:

http://www.elpj.com/frameset.html

I got their demo CD. They compare LPs and 78 played on a normal turntable and on the laser turntable. It will even play records that have been smashed!

There's a small hitch to it though, it cost $10,000!

Al K.

[mobile homeless]

It will even play records that have been smashed??? I have been to this site in the past and dont remember this one. The table actually will still reproduce bad pops/scratches but not nearly as bad as the tonearm/stylus. This beast has been advertised in various rags such as Stereophile etc for quite awhile. They need some serious reviews... 10k would buyt a lot of records!

I am still skeptical on the sound on this piece although the application is interesting to say the least. Sonically, it's still up in the air. I find it amusing that use a digital CD as a sampler. heh...

Here are some lightweight Q&A FAQs from the company that answer some VERY basic inquiries:

Q: I remember hearing that the sound reproduction of the older laser turntables was not good. Has that changed?

A: The sound has been totally reworked. It now meets the highest standards of recorded music.

Q: Does the Laser Turntable digitize the signal from the record?

A: No, the reproduction is analog all the way.

Q: Is it easy to operate the Laser Turntable?

A: Very easy. With a single touch you can repeat or cue individual cuts. The Laser Turntable has a variable speed control. The LT-1LA steps through its 30 rpm to 50 rpm range at 0.1 rpm for LPs and 45s. The LT-XA has a range of 60 rpm to 90rpm at increments of 0.2 rpm and can play 78s in addition.

Q: Can you plug the Laser Turntable into your existing stereo system?

A: You can connect the Laser Turntable to any available phono input and use it in conjunction with your other components.

Q: How do scratches on the records affect the sound produced by the Laser Turntable?

A: Light scratches have little impact on the sound compared with records played with a needle. The noise from deep scratches is markedly reduced from that of a conventional turntable.

Q: What about records so warped that a conventional turntable cant track the groove? Can they be played?

A: Because the laser pickup maintains a constant distance from the groove, it can track warped records that a tone arm cant negotiate. It does, however, have its limits, 5 6 mm of warp for LPs and 45s, otherwise an error message will appear.

Q: Is it important to clean the records?

A: Yes, it is very important since the Laser Turntable reads everything it sees. We recommend the vacuum cleaner made in the US.

Q: Is there a warrantee on the Laser Turntable?

A: The Laser Turntable is fully covered for defect within the first year after purchase. Thereafter parts, labor and shipping are guaranteed not exceed a total of US$1,000. Before making the repair we will submit an estimated cost.

Q: What is the difference in the sound between the Laser Turntable and a CD player?

A: CD players reproduce sound by converting the digital information a computer has fed to a disc into an analog of the sound wave. The Laser Turntable preserves the analog of the sound wave throughout the reproduction process resulting in a warm natural sound.

[maxg]

You can connect it to an existing phono input, huh....

I wonder if that's and MM or an MC lazer they got there????

All sounds a bit like - and now we will turn records into CD's doesnt it....

Still if they send me one I promise to play with it properly and then provide an unbiased review.

[mobile homeless]

It's STILL ALL in the ANALOG domain (never converted to digital signal), a major difference I would say. On the other hand, laser doesnt strike me as analog in the strictest sense but it is.

[Al Klappenberger]

Mobile..

The "smashed" record was one of the tracks on the demo CD. They normally compared the laser table to a conventional table playing the same recording. In this case, a normal needle won't track it at all. The laser simply played it with an obvious "click" each time the "splice" passed under the pick-up laser. I assume you have to reasemble the pieces carefully on the table aligning the groves as best you can.

One thing you really have to keep in mind when listening to the CD is that IT IS A CD you are listening to, not a record!

Al K.

[NOSValves]

Hey you can get out the super glue and play those records your younger siblings stepped on in your bedroom ! Man I'm saving my 10K

[jt1stcav]

Hell, for 10G's the damn player had better glue the smashed LP all by itself!

How do they expect to sell this thing at its entry-level price of $10,000? Sure, the technology is ground breaking, but there aren't alot of filthy rich audiophiles these days who will plunk down that much cabbage for a 'table that has yet to be reviewed and proven to be as described, IMO.

I don't know about this one yet...hopefully I'm wrong and this is the next evolution in vinyl reproduction. But if I was Daddy Warbucks with millions to burn, I'd rather spend a whopping $75,000 on the Rockport Technologies System III Sirius 'table, which has been reviewed and has been proven the single best turntable ever built (according to Stereophile's M. Fremer, designer Andy Payor, and recording engineer Roy Halee).

Just my imaginary 2 trillion cents worth...

[NOSValves]

I hear that ! Funny thing is this very same table has been brought up here it seems like a dozen times !

[dodger]

Greetings:

I find it somewhat "different" that although it can play badly scratched records, a recommendation for clean records is made. Especially if it can play a scratched redord where some of the information may be missing.

As in smoke or fog a laser can read information. The laser should have the capability of reading through some "dirt"

And as a severely warped record can somewhat affect speed at the rise and fall, maintaining a constant would be a questionable action to me.

Win dodger

[Mallette]

Yeah, we've been over this one several times on my watch.

1. It's obviously a good idea. Anything that can play an LP without touching is.

2. Doesn't take an advanced degree to figure a laser could read the grooves better than any mechanical device.

3. However, no one I've ever heard from has actually heard the thing.

4. 10,000.00 is ridiculous. It should not be that hard.

Dave

[artto]

Not that damn thing again.

[Randy Bey]

I can only assume that while some TTs sell for three and four times $10,000 this one has few if any converts because it sucks.

Or no one is into TTs that have such serious electrical and mechanical engineering. I myself kinda like the idea of spinning a platter and amplifying the vibrations of a stylus.

[sunnysal]

I bumped this because I remembered an interesting article about a guy who developed an algorithim to "play" an optically scanned record, yet another way to avoid needles in grooves, I found it VERY interesting:

"But what DID surprise me was the innovative way that Ofer Springer managed this non-contact feat, as pointed out in the March 27 issue of the LangaList

http://www.langalist.com/plus/newsletters/2003/2003-03-27plus.asp#10

-- he simply scanned the record on his flatbed scanner!

Of course there was nothing "simple" about it. Because of the size of the record vs. that of the scanner, he had to scan each record four times (to get all four pie-wedges as he rotated the record), after which he stitched the images together into one full image of the record. Then, in Ofer's words

http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~springer/

"Once the image was ready, writing the decoder was very simple. All it did was rotate a "needle" around a given center at some redefined angular velocity, attempting to keep track of the groove the needle was initially positioned on. The offsets (dr) between this track and the basic radial were bunched into a sequence of samples; these were later converted into wav files." (I love the fact that he considers this "simple.")

And it really works! Check out this sample of the music he recovered from his optical scan of a record

http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~springer/sounds/b1.mp3

He offers more examples, as well as an interesting discussion of how and why he pursued this, at

http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~springer/

As you'll note, the quality is far from perfect; even far from what an original record player would produce (then again, this was a home project with early code; it could probably be optimized, and he makes his source code available if you wish to do so!) But it isn't amazing how well a pig sings -- it's that the pig sings at all!"

quoted from a technology newsletter from digital computer corporation....

[Mallette]

Ah, yes, that a pig sings at all.

And this guys idea of scanning and reproducing is far superior to the laser, or any turntable.

Just needs money, like all of us. And perhaps a scanner with 12" bed.

If he can do this for grins, it can be perfected for a few bucks. It's inevitable, just a matter of time and money.

I see nothing nice about mechanical contact with my LP's at any price.

Dave

[Mallette]

Followed the link and enocouraged the guy to see a bank or entrepreneur. Absolutely fascinating discussion of his means and methods.

I'd happily pay a lot for software that would do that to at least the equivalent of 24/96.

Dave

[sunnysal]

cool isn't it? I hope someone picks up on the idea because it DOES have potential. regards, tony

[Mallette]

My sense is that if a hobbyist can prove the concept as this guy did, a team of serious programers could make it work pretty quick.

Sounds better than Edison's first recording...

Dave

[Randy Bey]

hey, does the guy have a fax? I could fax him some albums to recreate....

[coda]

Interesting review from Ralph Glasgal of Ambiophonics fame.

The ELP Laser Turntable

Perfect Analog Sound Forever At a Price

Ralph Glasgal

www.ambiophonics.org

3 March 2000

Specifications

ELP LT-1XA Laser Turntable, $20,500.00, 30-50 rpm and 60-90 rpm, inc. switched equalizer, line-level output, air shipment, and HW-17S record cleaning machine. ELP LT-1LA laser turntable, 30-rpm, inc. air shipment and VPI HW-17S cleaning machine, $13,500.00.

Manufacturer:

ELP Corporation

3-10-1 Minami Urawa,

Urawa-shi, Saitama 336, Japan;

phone 048/883-8502,

fax 0-48/883-8503;

e-mail: elpchiba@interlink.or.jp;

website at www.elpj.com.

North American Distributor:

Andy Obst,

5 Timber Ridge, Los Alamos,

NM 87544; phone 505/662-1415,

fax 505/661-9068,

e-mail: andyobst@aol.com.

"The almost complete lack of serious playback harmonic distortion and the really flat and wide frequency response, free of resonances, from the ELP is a revelation..."

This is not an April Fools joke! Yes, Virginia, there really is a turntable that plays LPs (and even 78s) optically, that performs this function to the highest audiophile standards and that is now readily available at a rather high, but now more reasonable price than when first announced under the Finial aegis in the late 1980s

Anyone, with hundreds if not thousands of LPs, 45s or treasured 78s or anyone convinced that analog recordings musically outperform digital ones should begin saving up for the ELP Laser Turntable LT-1LA which sells for $13,500 including the very effective VPI HW-17s cleaning machine. While this seems like an outrageous price to pay for a turntable to play recordings, stored in what most people would consider to be an obsolete form, the recently announced Domus turntable and arm designed by Ben Ghibaldani goes for a cool $12,750 and that price doesn't include the cartridge, yearly needle replacement, a cleaning machine, and your records will still wear down, so obviously the analog beat goes on.

Since I have thousands of LPs and some hundred 78s (mostly vocal, acoustical, pre 1927) that I treasure, I decided the time had come to see what a laser turntable could do and review it, since this technology, coming so late in analog recording history and just after the advent of the CD, has never received the attention in the audiophile press it might otherwise have deserved. The secretiveness and ineptitude of Finial's public relations during the early days of the development of this device did not endear the company to editors and reviewers who largely treated the company as an improbable joke.

ELP Comes of AGE

It started for me when I found, quite by accident, a website describing an updated version of the Finial now made in Japan by ELP. The ELP Corporation's turntable seemed to be a truly reliable, Japanese made version of the ill-fated American Finial design. Indeed the Japanese company has now sold something over 200 of these machines each one hand made to order and to make a long story only slightly shorter, this optical thing works better than any record player I have ever used or tested. It is worth every penny they are asking for it if you value the complete absence of:

1. horizontal tracking angle error

2. leveling adjustment worries

3. inner groove distortion

4. channel balance error

5. stereo crosstalk

6. anti-skating compensation need

7. acoustic feedback problems

8. locked groove problems

9. problems tracking warped, cracked, or eccentric records

10. cartridge hum pickup

The payoff for eliminating all these cartridge playback defects is the startling clarity and musicality of the sound stage that is thereby delivered.

The almost complete lack of serious playback harmonic distortion and the really flat and wide frequency response, free of resonances, from the ELP is a revelation, particularly with early stereo LPs that are minimally mic'ed and therefore capable of producing exceptionally vivid stage images especially when listened to with the acoustical stereo crosstalk cancelled. Early reviews of the Finial criticized it for not being able to track the higher frequencies, but ELP now claims response to 25 kHz and using one of my old test records I was able to confirm essentially flat response up to 15 kHz using an oscilloscope. At least to these ears, that have admittedly lost their upper octave, the frequency response of the ELP is clearly better than that of any cartridge I have ever owned.

Having a laser turntable makes it possible to play LPs as one would a CD.

That is, one can select a particular track to play, repeat it or the entire disc virtually any number of times, program a group of tracks to play in any order, pause, etc. It also has a draw like a video laser disk player that opens and closes at the touch of a button and, mirabile dictu, it stops automatically at the end of a record and even turns off its ac power after a few minutes. It displays track or disk time elapsed, time remaining, and other CD like things. It performs some functions a CD player does not do including changing playback speed in increments of .1 rpm.

Some Not Audible Downers

Its major defect is the lack of a remote control to take advantage of all these CD like features, though I am told that the hooks for such a remote control, are on the board. Since, despite its CD like design, it is still a 100% analog device as far as the signal path is concerned. But since the reflected light signal from the groove wall is not digitized, there is no SPDIF digital output. The LT-1XA even has only a cartridge level output of 12 MV and so must go to the low-level input of a preamp. The more expensive LT-1LA, which is the unit I tested, has an RIAA equalized line level output but it is inexplicably anemic at only a few tenths of a volt and so one needs plenty of gain in the balance of the system to achieve a normal listening level. Another factor to consider is that laser diodes do not last forever. ELP rates theirs at 10,000 hours which is a reasonably long time. The replacement cost is a tidy $1500. But there is a real risk that they will not be around to supply the part or to help you install it when the time comes. I would therefore suggest that you stockpile a spare laser replacement assembly with instructions if you expect to use the turntable a great deal.

Deluxe Model Plays 78s

The LT-1LA, which costs a whopping $20,500, not only eliminates the need for a preamp but also adds the ability to play 78 rpm records, even antique ones, which is no mean feat. A handy outboard high and low frequency passive adjustable filter and a groove wall selector switch are provided to enhance 78rpm mono or mono LP reproduction. One can read the sum of both groove walls or just the inner or just the outer groove wall. I soon discovered that the inner wall of most of my 78s was much better preserved than the outer wall. Reading just the inner wall of most acoustic 78s of the Caruso/Galli-Curci era produced amazingly quiet and undistorted results apparently because the heavy sound boxes and arms of the old acoustic horn players wore the outer groove wall more than the inner groove wall as the heavy arm was pushed solely by the outer groove wall toward the center of the record. In any case it is gratifying to listen pleasurably to a rare record which otherwise seems unplayable.

Dirt Is Where You Find It

Both ELP models allow the angle at which the laser hits the groove to be slightly varied. This feature sometimes makes it possible to compensate for some types of groove damage or manufacturing idiosyncrasies. The fact that the laser pickup illuminates and sees the entire groove wall from top to bottom means that any dirt mite in the groove will cause a click. This is the major disadvantage of this perhaps all too accurate playback technology. Thus ELP includes a top of the line VPI record cleaning machine with each turntable and you better use it. Playing an uncleaned and unvacuumed stereo LP on the ELP is not anything you will do twice. Uncleanness is unlistenableness. It is dismaying to realize just how much crud lies in the groove of just about any LP including even those virgins never before played. However, after proper cleaning, the velvety almost CD like quiet is a pleasure to experience and, in most cases the reproduction is as tick and pop free as cartridge reproduction. The ELP units do include what they call a noise blanker. It can be switched in or out but I could never hear a difference and, like most analog noise reduction circuits I have tried, this one doesn't seem to do anything.

The knowledgeable Andy Obst, (505-662-1415) ELP's moonlighting U.S. reseller, (in real life Andy is a nuclear physicist) offers the Cedar DC-1 Series 2 De-Clicker for use with ELP players. This professional all digital unit did do a dandy job at eliminating almost all those remaining clicks and pops which are probably not caused by dirt. The DC-1 can also be used as an analog to digital 48 KBPS SPDIF converter making the ELP a stronger contender in a 44.1 KBPS CD world. It can also digitize using 20-bit resolution but I did not use this option. Having a high quality, quiet, digital signal at standard level makes it possible to use the ELP player more easily in the new digital surround sound systems that include 7.1 processing and ambience recovery for two channel music sources and I have had considerable success playing my library of old SQ encoded LPs this way. But at $10,000 for the DC-1, one must have a very strong aversion to vinyl playback ticks and pops.

ELP Demo On The Web And In Your Home

ELP now has an elaborate 28 page website at, www.keyserve.net/elp, that includes specifications, an order form, testimonials, answers to questions, a history of the company (it used to be BSR) etc. While some of it is written in Japanese English, it is well worth a visit. It includes a 20-second sample of music played with a regular unnamed cartridge and then with the laser player. Unfortunately I could not decode this file using Netscape but Internet sound quality is usually so poor as to make this kind of demo futile. I had better luck with the video clip that shows how the five laser system keeps its two groove reading lasers focused and on track. ELP used to sell its turntables through representatives in a variety of countries but now it is putting the emphasis on direct sales. For $500 a gentleman of Japan will come to your house and demonstrate the player. The $500 will be credited if you make a purchase but first must be paid out in real paper bills when the demonstrator crosses your threshold and the money is forfeit if you don't eventually buy an ELP turntable.

The Bottom Line

I am absolutely enthralled. I hadn't listened to any of my LPs in over two years (despite having a Versa Dynamics air-bearing turntable) and now I can't stop playing them (Ambiophonically of course). The best-kept secret in the audiophile world is that the optical laser LP disk player really works. While there is still the occasional tick or pop (without the Cedar DC-1), I can begin, for the first time to appreciate what the analog aficionados are so enthused about. I still believe that digital is a more accurate and reliable storage medium than the analog LP. But the temptation by today's recording engineers and CD producers to use digital video recording gimmicks such as panning, excessive multi-mic'ing, spot mics, ambience enhancement etc. make many classical CDs less musical and less psychoacoustically rational than older analog recordings that of necessity had to be made simply and honestly because hokey post processing tools simply were not available.

If you want audiophile caliber analog sound forever without the cartridge/arm-tweaking hassle, the ELP Laser Turntable is the way to go.