Alnico Drivers

[mark1101]

Can someone please explain the difference between the alnico drivers and the other types that have existed in the Heritage products? And what are used in the IIs (IE. Heresy IIs, Cornwall IIs) ? I always hear that folks are interested in cornwalls with alnico drivers. Why are they considered better (or worse) from a technical standpoint?

What do people think sound best in cornwalls and Heresys? I have stated that the non-alnico driven horizontal oriented cornwalls I had (1980) sounded better to me than the alnicos in vertical orientation I have now (1973). What are other people's experience and opinion on this?

Has there ever been a preferred woofer in a cornwall, or have they basically been the same over the years?

[formica]

The difference between the alnico drivers and the others is in the alnico magnet used versus ferrite magnets. These are both magnets but they vary in chemical composition.

Alnico magnets were made using cobalt which I believe was imported from South Africa, and due to civil unrest and embargos the supply ran thin and it became prohibitively expensive. Their drawback was that they are relatively fragile (compared to mud magnets) and therefore are often encased in steel. This inherently shields the driver's magnetic field... and can be safely used near a CRT TV.

Ferrite magnets are made from inexpensive local materials... but have a smaller magnetic density than the original alnico ones. Their drawback is to obtain the same magnetic force, the magnet has to be larger (and the driver becomes heavier).

There have been many "unproven" preferences in audio... but the theoretical difference has little to do with performance as much as convenience. Also remember that other parts of the driver may have been changed over the years which be the actual cause for the preference rather than the magnet's material.

Later...

Rob

[WMcD]

I thought cobalt came from Congo, but it it was a supply problem. Diamond and gold mines in South Africa keep working until a more recent strife and probably didn't shut down entirely.

The K-77 made by Electrovoice changed over to the ceramic at some time.

Now here is a question. Was the Atlas midrange an alnico and then an EV sourced mid came in with a ceramic? Al K, how has first hand knowledge has reported the EV is a clone of the Atlas.

Now Klipsch is using an Atlas midrange unit we're told. It is probably ceramic.

My point is that there were a few switches and Im not sure where the magnet change fits in.

Best,

Gil

[formica]

Gil... you are probably correct about Congo...

I based it on memory and didn't really check, but my timing would be way off compared to when they switched the magnets for the woofers... opps...

should have been...

----------------

Alnico magnets were made using cobalt which I believe was imported from Africa and as the supply ran thin it became prohibitively expensive.

----------------

Rob

[WMcD]

I suppose I should present a thesis which can't be easily proven.

Most of these units sound pretty much the same over the years of evolution. They all sound pretty darn good. Maybe differerent, but who is to say "better". That is my thesis. Pretty much as far as we can go.

Mark, and others, come here asking for a detailed explanation of the relation betweeen physical changes in the designs and perceived acoustics resulting therefrom in some exact calculus.

That is a tall order. It would be very interesting if we all brought our various models to a convention, has some rooms, maybe 20 or more, which are a close model of all our living rooms, picked out an amplifying system we all agreed is good, and could wheel the speakers in and out at ten different placements for critical appraisal, with an ABX system for keeping track by 20 people.

It would be great fun. I expect there would be no consensus down to the resolution which is demanded, though.

The above is a bit sarcastic. None the less, I point out the magnitude of the problem in thinking there is any one organized system of analysis.

Lacking that empiracal evidence, anyone can say, e.g., alnico magnets, interconnects, vertical horn placement, spikes, etc., makes them sound better.

On the other hand, I think we'll find the K horn is best. Low distrotion is best. Wide frequency response is best. Pretty much what PWK says.

Smile,

Gil

[TBrennan]

Mark----When the first high-quality permanent magnet drivers were made in the mid 1940s Alnico was the magnet of choice, it was high-tech stuff then. John Hilliard, an engineering honcho at Altec, had worked with Alnico on magnetic submarine detection systems during the war. The other big techie at Altec, Jim Lansing (who went on to start JBL), was also very interested in the benefits of Alnico over iron magnets and electro-magnets (ferrites were not yet developed). Altec and JBL Alnico magnet compression drivers had an attractive steel return structure around the magnet which could be finished in hammertone or enamel stove-crackle paints, thus making for some VERY attractive drivers.

In the 1970s a civil war in Zaire resulted in a cobalt shortage when rebels there massacred many Belgian and French mining engineers and the rest of the Europeans fled. Thus companies still using Alnico magnets were forced to redesign with ferrite magnets. The resultant compresion drivers from Altec, JBL and EV performed at least as well as the Alnicos but were utilitarian and ugly; no more green hammertone finishes.

As a result certain Altec and JBL freaks, in accordance with Paul Fussel's theory of the cult of the archaic, began claiming that the old Alnicos sounded better than the new ferrites. This was nonsense of course and generally only collectors are intersted in Alnico while those seriously interested in performence prefer ferrite.

The ferrite woofers took longer for JBL and Altec to get right than the compression drivers due to unsymetric magnetic fields because of the different physical layout of ferrite magnets. These problems were soon solved however and modern JBL ferite woofs are superior to the old Alnico ones.

Alnico magnets are prone to demagnetization if the driver is overpowered, this caused by the intense field caused by the overpowered voicecoil. This demagnetization can take place in a split second. ANY old Alnico magnet driver should be considered as being at least 20-40% understrength. This doesn't happen with ferrites.

I don't know why some Klipsch fans think the older speakers with the Alnico drivers are better, the drivers sure as Hell aren't. And they were cheesy drivers anyway and not worth collecting like old Altecs and JBLs which are at least pretty and of very high performence when fully charged or recharged. Maybe some Klipsch guys wanted to jump on the Alnico bandwagon with the Altec and JBL Alnico fetishists, a losing game since such Lansingites will always hold the Klipschies in contempt.

So I figure those who think Alnico Klipsches are better are

1. deluded

2. Hear a difference and prefer low performence to high performence

3. If the speakers are better, which I doubt, there's some reason other than "Alniconess".

If you want to learn more, alot more, about this subject go to the Lansing Heritage site at www.audioheritage.org Go to the forum and do a search, this topic has been discussed there in detail and by some VERY astute people.

[j-malotky]

I heard once that Klipsch sorted the Alnico K77's into 3 groups depending on the sound performance. When buying used Alnico drivers it is hard to get two that sound the same.

John and Tom can tell give you a lot of info, but in a nutshell I personally prefer the K77m over the K77 because as long as the K77m has a good diaphragm they all sound the same and easily matched to any other good K77m.

Your '80 should have the mud magnets like the K77m.

I can not comment on the Atlas squawkers. As for the K33 woofers, they can be interchanged pretty freely with newer or older ones.

JM

[khorn58]

The early drivers were some of the best made drivers of the day and still sound great today.

The Stevens Trusonic 15 (some say this on of the all time best drivers ever made) and Ev were of the same grade as the JBL and Altecs.

wasnt tell the early 60 that klipsch sarted using cheaper drivers.

I think the great sound they maket might have to do with the lighter paper, making the driver

faster reacting than modern heavy paper(kevlar what ever) high watt drivers???

My early cornwall bass(Ev large silver back) is much tighter and deeper than my later cornwall with k33e).

[JohnA]

"3. If the speakers are better, which I doubt, there's some reason other than 'Alniconess'."

For me this is the closest to the truth. I prefer the K-55-V squawker primarily because of the crossover. The ferrite K-55-M is supposed to be +/- 3dB vs +/- 5dB for the -V. However, there is a difference in their sound, even when both are played through Al K's networks. I prefer the -V and I *think* it is because of the sound or performance down low near the 400 Hz crossover point.

Whatever it is, I have never thought AlNiCo had anything to do with it. There is no reason a ferrite magnet cannot duplicate the magnetic field of an AlNiCo magnet. It will be larger doing it, though.

[TBrennan]

Khorn----I agree that the old Stephens and EV woofers were good. But the University mids and tweets and Atlas mids and EV tweets PWK used were not, IMO, top quality drivers and not in the same ballpark with JBL and Altec drivers.

[mark1101]

Guys,

Thanks for the information and history lesson. All very interesting, and informative.

I didn't think my ears were lying to me.

Gil, you set up the Klipsch model comparsion party and I'll bring all of mine. That would be a blast. Rent a BIG hall though. I think you'd get some serious attendance if you advertised.

I agree that if you could assemble the various generations of Klipsch Heritage models in one place you'd probably hear some differences but nothing really major. They seem to have kept their basic personalities intact over the years with subtle improvements.

Fellas, I have a nice pair of those "rare" vert cornwalls with the alnico magnets. Anyone interested in trading, say, a pair of 1980 horizotal corns for them ???

Just kidding. Too early to hook the big fish on this one.

[khorn58]

I do agre that the JBl and Altec compression drivers are way better than the Atlas and University. But the atlas and the Unoversity work well in a khorn ect. when a twetter is used.

Even the University tweeter sounds pretty dam good I know it dosnt go that super high But there really is very little Music up were it drops off and most can't hear that high anyway.

Now the orig two way Khorn used the WE Driver many hold as the best driver ever made.

I think I was rated as the only compression driver that could go as low as 100hz.

I love to hear some khorns with altec jbl tad or we drivers in the mids.

I have no problem with the t35 sound.

[TBrennan]

KHorn----I think we'd agree that regardless of the drivers used PWK got some pretty damned good sound from his systems. And they are very good drivers afterall, I just don't think any are cult material, save the Stephens.

I saw an old Khorn with the WE driver in Hope, it's not one of the WE drivers that people go really ga-ga over, the 555s and 594s. The driver was a 713 or 720-722. Nice drivers though, aluminum diaphragms, I imagine they perform as well as Altecs or JBLs. Christ knows what a pair would go for.

[khorn58]

TBrennan- The We(Western Electric) stuff is somthing!

Some say the Field Coil speakers (Pre Anico ) work better then fix charged mangnets and just sound better.Maybe they hear somthing us poor folk can't afford to hear.

If you look on ebay under Western electric You will see raw feild coil speakers selling at unheard of prices

There is some 18" WE drivers going for almost ten grand with a buy it now price of 25 grand.

yes there are a few bidders already.

Maybe these would be nice sub speaker for are horns.

[djk]

"For me this is the closest to the truth. I prefer the K-55-V squawker primarily because of the crossover. The ferrite K-55-M is supposed to be +/- 3dB vs +/- 5dB for the -V. However, there is a difference in their sound, even when both are played through Al K's networks. I prefer the -V and I *think* it is because of the sound or performance down low near the 400 Hz crossover point."

http://www.atlassound.com/techLib/SLSheets/SL2.1551.PDF

Alnico vs ceramic, current Atlas production.

While both are ± 2-1/2dB from 300hz to 3Khz, the alnico is smoother from 1Khz~2Khz and goes a little lower.

This has nothing to do with the 'alniconess ' of the magnet, and everthing to do with the cavity behind the dome and how it is damped.

[Ray Garrison]

...and for a somewhat off center perspective on Alnico, you might want to read this, courtesy of Harvey Rosenburg (miss you, Harvey...)

[JohnA]

I had not noticed the PD-5VT had a ceramic magnet before. Thanks, djk!

[Giulio]

Just to inform you I had 2 couple of Tannoy GRF memory the series I (alnico) 92 db 1w/1m and the series III, biwiring, van den hul wiring ,95 db, more extended frequency response etc.

In music reproduction we all have different priority, I don't care about parameters, I just want to have the musician appear magically in front of me and ear music NOT a stereo.

The GRF WITH Alnico did that for me, the other were just one of the best speakers ever made.

with two friends of mine we spent many hours listening the two system and both agreed with me, the GRF III was a splendid speaker, the series one was more like a music instrument.

that's why I would like to have as a first pair of Klipsch, the Cornwall alnico horizontal ( if I ever will be able to recognize them on ebay....).

best regards

Giulio : )

[mark1101]

Giulio,

Welcome to the forum.

It is now 3 years later since this discussion began and I still have my vertical cornwalls with Alnico drivers. In fact, I have put more money into them, upgrading the networks and replacing the diaphragms on the alnico tweeters.

They sound better now than they ever did. I totally love those speakers.

You can see all the Klipsch I have below. But....there is nothing like cornwalls. I had them outdoors all weekend and they are just very very listenable. Not fatiguing at all, and able to sound fantastic with all the styles of music I played.

I hope you find the cornwalls you are looking for. I wouldn't worry about them having alnico drivers though. My other Klipsch speakers have the non-alnico type drivers and they are all excellent.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 10/7/2003 at 8:27 PM, TBrennan said:

Khorn----I agree that the old Stephens and EV woofers were good. But the University mids and tweets and Atlas mids and EV tweets PWK used were not, IMO, top quality drivers and not in the same ballpark with JBL and Altec drivers.

This is why Klipsch Quality Control had to hand select the drivers and reject many. Those were sold to Speakerlab, as far as I know. How do I know this? Because I never had a Speakerlab driver that curved as well as a K-77  or K-55.