Audio Flynn Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Here it is from my viewpoint. 1. 7.1 channel ? Give them a nice 2 or 3 channel integrated most wived hate any speaker and especially subwoofers. 2. An integrated with 4 inputs and 50 wpc, with decent transformers for $ 300 msrp plus $ 45 for a phono board. 3. Explain bookshelf speakers are nicer for the price because the shipping cost is generally only 30% of a floor stander. Make your own stands; concrete bird bath pedestal or wood construction. For example the RB-15 is a good starter speaker. 4. Admit DVD players "cloud" the music and make nice CD players for $ 350 MSRP. no remote, no programming track order; does anyone use that crap? If entry level audio minds could get a small potent system with a 2 year warranty for less than $ 900 we could maybe reinvent the dance party from the 1950s. Chicks would dig it. People just should not party to BOSE. Does the audio world give them any easy alternatives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 In my experience, most people don't even take the time to attempt to properly set up whatever mass market gear they have. I've known too many people, some of whom have already spent a fair amount of money on electronics, that don't even bother to position their speakers so that they have any soundtage or imaging at all. I've seen people with bookshelf speakers on different heights, located different distances from room boundaries. Many people with floorstanders just stick them into the corners and forget about it. Also, it seems that many people only have two criteria for Stereo or HT; does it play really, really loud, and does it have a lot of bass? I've had many friends of mine freak out when I simply make an attempt to position their speakers in a position where they will properly load the room. Unfortunatley large numbers of people have almost zero interest in bothering to sit between a pair of speakers. When they do it's 'Hey, it sounds like his voice is coming from the middle! The guitar is over to the right!, etc. Some people who are willing to invest in 5.1 have never even bothered to explore the possibilities of good old, antique 2.0 channel. I firmly believe that a shameful amount of the populace have simply never heard a really good stereo. Not a great "high end" system, but simply a well designed carefully assembled rig owned by someone who is an enthusiast. I also believe that once they are exposed to good hi fi they quickly take steps to better, or at least properly use, what they have. Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Perhaps they are listening to the music and not the gear. Maybe they really know something we dont. Dont worry, it will take you another 20 years of screwing around to get back to the simple setup where dust covers the cable and names are long forgotten... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Ignorance is bliss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Lord, I hope it doesn't take me twenty more years to shake this disease! I'm hoping to stall its continued advance by getting my hands on a pair of big old horns and tubes, hooking up my TT and my CD player and just letting it rip for a while. I'm not overly obsessed (I THINK) with the gear. I really like what I've heard of high efficiency and SET equipment and the used heritage stuff seems like the most cost efficient way to go. I want to get a pair of Cornwalls and run my PP amp until I try SET someday. I'm not a soundstaging and imaging freak. I just want something that plays the living hell out of MUSIC. I like the klipsch stuff that I've heard. I own RF 3II's and have heard Chorus II's quite a bit. I like the Chorus quite a bit more. I long for the day when I can totally let the upgrade urge pass without thinking I may be missing something. I sure hope it doesn't take two decades or I'm gonna be in deep sheep dip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Plus ignorance is a hellava lot less expensive.... :0) hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 It's been my experience that the people who go out and buy the cheap stuff understand that better gear is out there, but they want to believe that whatever they're buying is "good enough for me" Fact is, the more upscale HTiB packages these days are actually doing quite well. I installed two Yamaha 6.1 packages ($800) over the last week - they really do pack a wallop for the price - certainly more than enough to impress someone who really hasn't gotten into audio - and hell, the one I did yesterday impressed a guy who has been using a 30 year old JBL tower/Marantz amplifier combination since he bought it brand new. Unfortunately for the salespeople out there (thankfully I don't have to deal with these people anymore) there's still a race to the bottom of the price band going on, with nearly every major electronics retailer carrying some variation of the <$100 HTiB with built-in DVD player - a disposable piece of 5H1T with no power, no sound quality, and in general no redeeming qualities. Even people who don't understand audio can, when forced to audition it, recognize how utterly bad it sounds. (but hey - it makes a great gift - to someone you HATE!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Kelly, I LOVE people who have dust covering the cables and equipment. That means we are talking about something that has not been moved for thirty years, and was loved enough that it sits, unused, as a gentle and loved memory of happier times. I would say that more than half of the vintage tube gear I have purchased was in this condition. I have seen two of the audio collectors in action in the St. Louis area, and it is not fun witnessing how they act. They grab their wallets and start pulling out wads of cash to shove in the owner's face. Kelly, I think you follow a similar pattern to Gary and me- look through the bargains section of the paper, poke around the resale stores, and head for the estate sales. I have more fun listening to the spouses' and kids' stories then actually getting the equipment. I make sure loved equipment makes it to a good home for costs, if I don't keep it. Two of the stereo out of a box families(as I describe their non-thought stereos) that came to our little get together a couple weeks back have decided they want a setup like ours. It just takes a little exposure to a great system, and they realize what they are missing. Two less systems that will have years of dust on top! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whell Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 My thought is that the universe of individuals who are truly passionate about music AND the equipment are a very small subset of the folks who enjoy listening to music. My wife and my mom are great examples. They enjoy the way the music makes them feel, but don't really care if they get the best sound. Truly, I think folks with very pronouced "left brains" can appreciate music in a way that I can't. They can listen to music that is produced from whatever source, and their imaginations and emotions become much more responsible for the "listening experience" and enjoyment than the sound coming from the speakers. While I can certainly get emotional about a piece of music, I need the music to be reporduced with a level of sound quality not needed by my wife to get the emotional reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 My wife complains of my obsession by explaining that music , to her, is supposed to be in the background of life. It's something you can listen to while doing something else. On the other hand, we LISTEN to music as our main activity. We don't want anything in the background while doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 "Why do normal people shy away from decent audio?" Ever since the Carter era, when they started closing the institutions people like us have been allowed to roam free in society. Most other people think that there are other priorities in life like food and clothing. I'd rather wear worn out jeans and buy another amp than buy an Armani. Really when Joe and Jane Average walk into Sam's club, stand in front of that Bose HT display and push the big red button they are convinced that that is the best there is in audio. That or Best Buy and the other big box stores have convinced them that mediocrety is good enough. Those of us who suffer from the desease are the freaks. Luckily we have this little support group here to help us. My name is Rick and I am a stereoholic... Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 This is an interesting thread, and I think the observations and wonderings are well taken. When you think of the people who go completely gaga over any given activity, it is a significantly smaller group of people who only go somewhat gaga over it. I was listening to a friend of over 35 five years talk about how much he and his son enjoyed their home theatre. (Now I should say, this guy took his HS graduation cash gifts and bought a pair of Heresy's that he still owns, but doesn't listen to.) Their HT is some kind of HT in a box including receiver. It's not alot of money. At first, I realized that my nose was starting to tilt up in the air as I considered how "Wal-Mart" his HT system was. I'd been hoping to get him into a tube integrated and sub to go with his Heresy's. Then I just sat down with them and took in the experience of the movie. There was enough stuff blowing up for guys to enjoy it. The HT sounded pretty good. Even the plain Jane sub. I thought, what the heck. There isn't just a whole bunch of sound that comes out of the surrounds anyway. Enjoyment is the main thing. I was in the process of setting up an all Heritage HT. Now, this is not to disparage anyone who is properly proud of the system they have put together. My experience is completely suggestive. I just wasn't that impressed. There are so few movies I'm interested in watching and realized it just wasn't my thing. I'm a two channel guy. Right now I don't even have anything connected to my TV which is in a different room than the 2channel. For my money and taste, a 2.1, or maybe 3.1 HT meets or exceeds my expectations. Heck, I don't fuss about 2.0. If the rank and file stereo folks think about music the way I think about HT. I can understand that, sort of. One thing audiophiles need to do is not take themselves so seriously. After all, trying to take seriously a hobby where there are experts who claim they can tell the difference with "cable piers" to get the speaker wire up off the floor??? And not only that, it takes high dollar gear to accomplish that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Dang, double post. Well, here's a continued thought: It would make a fascinating thread to post on best Klipsch system under 1K. What gear would you put into it? I think I'd suggest the following. Heresy's from Ebay: $350 HK430 from Ebay... $50 Heart CD Agon: $550 Well, I don't know how to get it delivered for under $1k. Prices might be able to be beat, but I'm assuming something acceptable for WAF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Dee, I love cable piers! I told my wife all the stuff on the floors was cable piers, and that everything was scientifically positioned to maximize great sound. She gave me half an hour to clean up the den before she started throwing speakers away. Goodbye, "cable piers." Hello, clean room[ Is the Heart CD player a good one? I have been looking for a AH! or Rega, but someone beats me to it every time for the past three months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Dave, That would definitely be an incentive to ditch the cable piers. I think you might have the makings of a Budweiser Superbowl commercial in there somewhere. On the Heart CD. I've got one in a second system. It is one sweet CD source. I wouldn't recommend it over the AH!, which (with upsampler) I use in my main system. In terms of bang for the buck, and in the limits of my experience, it is the best CD in the (used) $500 price range. To disclaim... I haven't heard Rega or some of the other CD sources that are well regarded on the forum. Sonically, the upsampled AH! seems to offer clarity of detail, but the Heart is nicely smooth. Rethinking that $500 CD recommendation, that Sheng YA (Chinese) tubed CD player that is out on Ebay is in the price range and I'd think a likely candidate in that category. I purchased the Heart off the Agon when I ran across one for $550. Reading it's reviews had left me with a fairly intense curiousity and I thought, what the heck, if I like it better than the AH! I'll keep it and sell the AH! I had selected the AH! and purchased it some months before. Of course, both the Heart and the AH! are Dutch tubed conversions of Marantz models. The Heart CD 6000 is built on a Marantz machine which is notably heavier than the AH!. The heart has a more substantial feel to it than the AH!. Kind of like how different it sounds closing the door on a big car. They use a nearly identical remote. A few months back I offered the Heart for sale on the forum. I haven't listed it anywhere beyond that though. Haven't been in a hurry to move it, but wouldn't mind recovering my investment, less shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 ---------------- On 2/3/2004 11:20:40 AM mdeneen wrote: or $2000 for a 2W amplifier mdeneen ---------------- Nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 From Audio magizine, August,1980: "Audio:'What should a speaker do in order to be popular with the general public? Are most buyers looking for accuracy of reproduction?'" "Klipsch: 'First off, I don't even consider myself a member of the general public. I know that my requirements in a loudspeaker are those I discussed. Judging from what contact I have had with the general public,though, I conclude that 99 percent of the general public doesn't even know what accuracy of reproduction is. My company is for the one percent composed of perfectionists who buy these expensive speakers.'" Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Buying consumer crap gives those folks a sense that they are participating in a "community", however perverse that seems. It is the "outsider" , the "loner" who is willing to be different and investigate less "popular" alternatives. Since we have little else here to provide a cultural community, consumerism has taken its place. "Shopping" is the tribal Dance of the American "culture". The corporations would hardly have it any other way. C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 ---------------- On 2/3/2004 11:20:40 AM mdeneen wrote: From 50,000 feet looking down, most of what people buy in ANY category is junk relative to available examples of quality. Junk furniture, junk toys, junk computers, junk kitchenwares, junk cars, junk clothes, junk food, why not junk stereos? ...... I never quite understand why audiphiles have such consternation over the purchases of others. Who cares? Why? A search through this forum for "BOSE" will demonstrate this. It's one thing to be passionate about one's own choices, the "afficiondo effect," but what's the rumpus about what others purchase? ...................................................... Just stroll the streets and find people who would spend $200 for a bottle of wine, or $50 for a cigar, or $35 for a shot of cognac, or $2000 for a 2W amplifier, ............... mdeneen ---------------- Mark, So you're back to taking cheap shots at SET amps again. May I suggest you apply your own statement to yourself. "I never quite understand why audiphiles have such consternation over the purchases of others." It seems not much changes around here. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtDark Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Have really enjoyed this thread thusfar, keep the good comments coming. 3dzapper and Clipped and Shorn's posts bring Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead to my mind: the individual versus the masses (in terribly oversimplified terms). A very good read for anyone interested in this subject/theme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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