Khorns vs Belles

[hoggy]

Hey all,

Just curious plus just maybe I'll make the move. How much better do Khorns actually sound vs Belles in a room that's approxamately 33' x 27'? Carpeted with drapes. With speakers in corners on the long wall. My Belles sound fantastic to me even after 28 years but I've always wondered about upgradeing to Khorns. Has any one here started with Belles or LaScalas in a room of similar size that has upgraded to Khorns with the same equiptment and placement. Please try to as subjected as possible. I know it's hard not to be predudice in favor of the Khorns. I have the older Belles that go lower than the newer ones.

Thx,

hoggy

[HDBRbuilder]

You have a good K-horn room based on the limited info given. You SHOULD hear a noticeable improved difference in the performance of properly set-up and sealed to corners K-horns as compared to your Belles in that room. The bass bottom-end of K-horns will be better than that of your Belles. The larger K-400 series mid-horn lens will also provide a bit more presence to match up with that corner basshorn than the smaller mid-horn lens of your Belles. This is only to be expected since the Belle was designed specifically as a dressed-up LaScala for use as a center channel between two flanking K-horns.

[jt1stcav]

The Klipschorns can't sound any worse than your beloved Belle Klipsch IMO, so just do it and enjoy your music even more! If I'm not mistaken, bass with the Klipschorns should also be much more pronounced and authoritative.

[Cut-Throat]

Hoggy,

I own Belles and have heard Khorns. If I had proper corners in my basement (and I mean really proper, not False or windows in the way corners), I would get a pair of Khorns in a heart beat.

Mind you the Belles are 80-90% of Khorns, but in this audio business that is a far bigger improvement than you can get with an amp! - And if you are talking capacitor or cable upgrades which lend very little improvement at all in reality!

Also you could probably uupgrade to Khorns for a cost of less than $1K, including some shipping. So, costwise this is not major consideration. For me it boiled down to placement issues of the Khorns.

One improvement that I had in my Belles was changing out the type "AB" crossover to a type "A". Not a Khorn Improvement, but a large improvement! What crossover are you running in your Belles?

[Mr. P]

HDBR said it well. Here are a couple of other observations that you should be aware off.

Most furniture is fairly low to the ground, and consequently you are used to being basically on the center of the vertical axis of the K500 horn with your Belle Klipsch. There is a clairity due to being on axis, but at times there is also a harshness from being on axis. With the K-horns height, you will be slightly below axis and there will be some differences there that will be quite noticeable. Without a audio background it may be hard to define, but you will like it.

Here is another big difference, if you like listening to a beautiful signing voice. The Human voice extends down into the 300Hz frequency range. A compresion driver does a much better job of reproducing the voice than a paper/synthetic coned bass driver. The crossover frequency for the Belle is 500Hz, and the cossover for the K-horn is 400Hz. What that means to you is that 100Hz more of the low end of the vocal range comes from the midrange horn.

To me that one point is worth going to the K-horn. You know the bass will be better, ahh but the voice sounds sooo good on a K-horn.

I used to listen for Hours to Linda Ronstadt after I got my K-horns.

The first Klipsch speakers I ever heard were Bells with the Klipsch crossover by passed, and they were runnin through a set of Crown electronic crossovers into Crown DC300/DC150/DC60 amplifiers. So I ain't doggin the Belles!

[hoggy]

Thanks all,

I have no doubt that Khorns would sound better. It's how much better and is it worth it? From all of your responses it is probably worth it. I have AA xovers with the 1uf harmony bypass cap mod. I have a set of Al's A networks on order which should be showing up in a couple of weeks. I'll be on the lookout for Khorns around April/May when I get my tax return. Money's not going to be the problem. Moving these suckers is going to be the hard part. hehehehe

Again thx guys,

hoggy

[Q-Man]

My two sons grew up with a pair of LaScalas in the house, since I had them before I was married. When they were about 11 and 16 years old, respectively I started to get into the home theater thing. I always wanted a pair of Klipschorns, because I grew up listening to a pair. The LaScalas were my compromise speaker, but they were great for those college and party years. When I went out and bought a pair of Klipschorns to use for my mains they thought that I was nuts. They just loved the sound of the LaScalas and never heard a better speaker. Those of you that know me, know that my kids are exposed to a lot of different speakers. When I got them home and hooked them up withen minutes they both had big smiles on their faces and said that they now understud why I did it.

I told them that we needed another pair and they couldn't wait for me to get them.

You will notice even more of a difference going from a Belle to a Klipschorn.

[lynnm]

"(and I mean really proper, not False or windows in the way corners),"

OUCH!

MY KHORNS STILL SOUND LOVELY!

[Daddy Dee]

My room is not as large as that, but even in a smaller room the difference between Scalas and Khorns was surprising. It is hard to describe, but the Khorns just have a bigger sound. One would expect the LF to be fuller, but way the HF loads the walls, too. Even that makes a difference in the sound. The size of your room might even accomodate well a Belle center channel for two channel listening.

[hoggy]

Unfortunately this is my living room. I have a couch in between the Belles so there's no room for a center channel. I have to move my listening chair to sit in front of them. It's a pain but I have no choice but well worth it.

hoggy

[sheltie dave]

Hoggy, the Khorns will kick some serious a-- in that setting. It is like enjoying a great glass of wine in your listening chair vs enjoying that same glass of wine at a five star restaurant with your wife on your honeymoon. One is wonderful, the other is magical. The first day you have your Khorns will be the best set of speakers you will ever hear - for the rest of your life

[Q-Man]

Hey Hog,

I have a question for you. I see your using an MC352 and I would like to know how you like it? I would also like to know about how much power your meters say you are putting into those Belles in your room.

I have an MC206 a six channel power amp that is rated at 200 watts into 4 ohms and 120 watts into 8 ohms. Mcintosh doesn't use the autoformers in their multi channel amps. Your MC352 has autoformes so the amp produces 350 watts per channel no matter what the load. A few weeks ago I tried to buy the MC202 200 watt per channel power amp with the autoformers to power my main speakers, but it was just discontinued. I'm now thinking of getting the new MC252, 250 watts per channel, again with the autoformers. I'm a little concerned about it having too much power. On the other hand I have lit up the power guard circuit on the 206 a couple of times when I was pushing it. I don't know how the amp sees the load on my Klipschorns, I'm guessing maybe a 6 ohm load.

I was also just going to buy another MC206 because I run 10 channels, but I might get a little better sound out of a two channel power amp then a 6 channel power amp.

[Deang]

"Proper" corners huh?

PWK used false corners.

The sound is not compromised as long as the bass horn is extended and completed. Also, there might be an advantage to false corners in the sense that if walls the Klipschorns are using are not the outside walls of the house -- false corners might actually work better in offering some decoupling from interior walls, which tend to resonate.

[mobile homeless]

While you hope for the solidly constructed corner option, well-built False corners would also allow placement options with the position of the horns optimized for your seating position, not to mention the ability to increase some soundstage depth by bringing the speaker out from the wall while still being sealed.

kh

[Cut-Throat]

False Corners,

My statement had nothing to do with sound and everything to do with WAF and decor!

I'm not dissing anyone for doing this, I am just stating why I don't. I have thought about this a lot, and just cannot come up with a viable plan for Khorns (looks wise) in my listening area.

[Q-Man]

I have to agree with Dean and Mobile on this one.

False corners are much better then the room corners if they are constructed right. Push on your drywall and watch how it flexes between the studs. There are many advantages to using them.

I'm also one who doesn't care what my system looks like so that has zero affect on what I do.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I do not own a set of belles ...I have heard them several times though. They are good, if not great speakers, in the right situation.

Problem is...and the opportunity....Klipschorns are better. Especially in a big sized room like you have too. Real corners/ False Corners who cares? Just get em in their snug,,,,, And enjoy an experience as most of us have once you hear em on your own, by yourself, music kinda cranked.... You will smile once and for all you have found what you can't put into words but know through your ears to your heart.

Klipschorns are flat out the best home speakers klipsch has ever made.

PS You can blow up my pic on the left above my name and see my family room. I have one false corner too. (The old 1968 Cornwall II is under the HDTV)

[hoggy]

Hi Q-Man,

I cannot say enough good about the MC 352. I have had 3 amps with these Belles in the same place. I love it. I have never heard them through a tube amp so can't say anything there. I used a Tandberg 3008A for 15 years. Than I tried a Adcom 5008. The Tandberg blew the Adcom away but the Mac is so much better than the Tandberg was. I just have nothing but praise for it. As far as meter readings go. Normal listening levels are around .35 watts. 3.5 watts is quite lound and 35 watts is very loud. Guessing (meter reading the scale) that 150 watts peak is concert level. The Belles have never complained pushing this level although my ears can't take these volumes. They always seem to be able to take a little more but I'm afraid to put any more power into them. I doubt this amp would hurt these speakers before they hurt you ears. This amp barely gets warm to the touch. I'd like to explain more but I'm away from home and am using my brothers computer. I won't be home until Tuesday. I can try to answer any more questions than.

hoggy

[Q-Man]

hoggy,

Thanks for the information, that is what I wanted to know.

Good luck with the Klipschorns.

[Q-Man]

hoggy,

I had a long talk with Audio Classics today. They know more then any Mcintosh dealer that I talked to so far. I received an education today. I ended up buying a MC202 from them to go with my 206. I almost broke down and bought the MC352 like yours, but I'll be needing another 202 yet so I can cover my ten channels. I wish he never described the 352 to me, now I'll be thinking about that one for a long time.

The MC252 is just like the 202 except for having 50 more watts per channel, no sound difference. The 352 is a totally different balanced design has which eliminates all hum and noise. I'm told that it's great sounding, warmer yet and tighter bass.