is multi-channel music going to survive?

[jdm56]

Is it just me, or is SACD and DVD-Audio virtually dead in the water? New releases seem to be slowing. Prices are still too high. Visibility at retail is next to non-existant. Promotion is very limited (mostly preaching to the converted). Even at CES, it appears there was very little push. What is (not?) going on here? I, for one, would hate to see both formats fail, as I am convinced of the great potential of multi-channel playback to provide a much "higher fi" than 2-channel ever can. Was this the last, best chance for something better than 2-channel CD?

[meuge]

I think the problem is twofold. DVD-Audio is a format that would be easiest to adapt to, and probably easiest to distribute, because compatibility is less of an issue. However, many of the record companies, who are so determined to spend an excess of time and effort (and money) to prevent piracy, have largely scoffed at DVD-Audio because it can be played on a computer DVD-player, choosing SACD instead. But SACD, is completely incompatible with anything, and requires an investment into a dedicated player. Given the quality of CD music, and the fact that DVD-players universally play audio CDs, people in the mainstream are finding it silly to buy a player specifically for playing music, when their Bose audio system (if even...) will probably not let them hear a difference.

Hence is the problem - music companies want SACD, but people don't, so it's not going anywhere.

I was looking for DVD-Audio disks and Amazon has under 100 of them, compared to 20+ times as many SACDs... But since I don't have the money to invest in a dedicated SACD player, I haven't bought any.

[wheelman]

To tell you the truth I never once saw a dvd audio cd or super cd for sale anywhere. So I guess it never existed in my area lol. But when i listen to music I am old school give me two channel. And I support two channel even though I am into home theater. Is that a lie then? I really think music quality is going down hill for the sake of multi channel crapola gadgets that no one needs.

[J.4knee]

Here is the major problem, cheap less than $100 DVD players that allow people to play DVD's with multichannel sound but are garbage and can't play DVD A or SACD. The average consumer does not know what these formats are so they are not interested. Most buy cheap HT all in one systems for <$500 add it to their TV and they think they have a home entertainment system. That is where probably 85% of the purchases are made. These folks do not discern in their audio and video tastes they are watching $129 TVs with the aforementioned cheap poor quality sound systems added to them. Move the manufacture of these units out of the $.30/hr labor regions back into the areas where quality work is done at a more moderated labor cost and you will see more expensive product true but then the consumer will demand more for their money and better quality systems will become more of a standard. Until that happens its only folks like us who demand the finest from their A/V systems who will notice the decline of potentially promising formats. But hey thats just my opinion I could be wrong.

[artto]

This time around I think multi-channel is here to stay. If anything, because of HT. The technology doesn't cost that much (you can buy a decent HK 5 channel AV reciever for less than $200).

As for cost of SACD or DVD-A, the cost is no more than what CD's cost 20 years ago. Inflation adjusted, they are actually cheaper than when CD was first introduced.

As for catalog selection, it took many years for CD to have more than a few hundred titles. For about 5 years I was able to own at least 5-10% of the entire available catalog of CD. After that production & titles picked up & I could no longer keep up with maintaining purchases of 5-10% of the catalog.

Personally, I have no trouble acquiring SACD. Tower Records has hundreds available. I believe BMG Music Club now has them available too. Acoustic Sounds (acousticsounds.com) has plenty. And you can also order Telarc direct from Telarc.

[jdm56]

Yes, they ARE available - if you look for them (part of the problem?). But hardly any new titles by "popular" artists are released concurrently with the CD version. Why? It seems most titles are by relatively obscure artists.

And as for price, I'm used to paying $9-$10 each, for CD's, delivered to my mail box. Compared to that, $20-$30 SACD/DVD-A is ridiculous. I even balk at $17 hi-rez. $14-$16 is where I feel I'm not being hosed.

Mind you, this isn't keeping me up nights with worry. I think CD is a wonderful medium, and that if they are well recorded, the sound quality is nearly as good as 2-channel hi-rez. At least on my rig and to my ears. But the promise, the possibilities of multi-channel are so tantalizing. True, there are some "gimmicky" multi-channel recordings, but that does not diminish the potential.

Part of the problem, I'm afraid is that the very people who should be jumping all over hi-rez digital are stuck in some kind of a sentimental time warp / love affair with their LP's. Not to denigrate the LP, but it's day has come and gone, and by stubbornly hanging on to it, vastly superior technology is being allowed to wither on the vine.

[mandi]

Well, I was never really into music until someone showed me a DVD-A. Now I actually know who sings what (If I have a DVD of them) Cost? I just checked on concert tickets for Fleetwood Mac. 75 bucks. I have watched "The Dance" several times and think I had the best seat in the house. The only thing I do hate is the 5 song DVD-As. I guess if I bought enough of those and then purchased the Sony 400 DVD changer I would have a good random concert selection.

[prodj101]

I think that multichannel will survive and I think if anypthing it will pick up. SACD I think will end up beating out DVD-A.

[kenratboy]

Well, most all new DVD players have DVD-A and SACD decoding built in (like the new Sony and Samsung players) - so that problem will fix itself.

However, most people don't have the sort of systems needed to properly use these formats.

Also, I am very unhappy that the *holes at the record companies decided to deny us the use of optical or coaxial outs, and we need to use the 5.1 pre-outs instead - that is a PITA.

What I see as being a big market is concert DVD's - anyone seen Best Buy's collection? It is very large and I am taking advantage of it - good audio, and video too!!!

[Colin]

SACDs have magazine endorsements as the better audio format, but there is wind in the DVD-A sails which manufacturers and retailers are not using yet. The DVD-A format has the potential for wider frequency response, dynamic range as real as live music and six channels of recorded information. Yet the product and the market are not there, yet. First the public has to get their fill of six channel video, then the industry will do doubt wheel out another improvement.

I heard the new Sony SACD player when it first came out - on the dealers long standing B&W and Krell combination, in the sumptuous red velvet quiet luxury of their highest end salon. The massive player is still sitting there today, topping the rack of silver Krell boxes, next to the silver and black Krell concrete block amp and a pair of curvaceous cherry B&W 802s.

I played the Sony demo CD and a favorite of mine the Paul Simon Rhythm of the Saints with its lush tropical sound and its 12-piece band. They both sounded good. Unlike some of the audio pundits, my first impression was not that here was suddenly the sound of vinyl in a more practical, marketable format. My first impression was that for a $5,000 piece of heavy brushed metal disc player, it had better sound good. The Paul Simon classic DID sound wonderful on this high-end, big buck system, but no new secrets were startling revealed to me.

Here are a few observations, and then a conclusion:

1. The price of SACD players continues a downward spiral. Now models sell at the $500 price point. Suddenly the race for the high-end turntable/CD player dollar is on. For the price of a really good cartridge and turntable, audiophiles can now play Super Audio CDs and regular ones with many of the features of inconvenient vinyl.

2. There is still wind left in the CD sails, which will carry the format sometime longer. I am thinking about 24-bit/96 kHz recordings, such as Diana Kralls wonderful re-mastered issue of her first album, Stepping Out (Justin Time, 2000).

While I love the DMP and Chesky recordings because they are such great recordings, but they still do sound like just that, great recordings. This CD, whether it is the youthful rawness of a young artist, or the artistic superiority of newly used technology, I dont know, but this disc, does not sound like a recording at all. In my own humble opinion, the sound is close to flawless.

The left hand side of her piano growls like the meanest junkyard dog. The bass is there it is just plain there. Solid, tangible, plucked and ready to slide. The highest notes float in the night air like the wings of Tinker-bell. Kralls voice has the strength, timber and depth of the recording studio.

While she does have reverberation mixed in, like most female singers do, her instruments strangely do not, just like other groups. This is a recording trick that never fails to create some cognitive dissonance for me, yet the recording comes closer to the real thing than any I have listened to yet.

Cleaner, more solid, better texture and more fully formed sound adds up to an greatly improved sense of realism. The holographic illusion of a live singer has taken not just one, but two steps closer.

"Close your eyes and fake you out realism is still a long way off, but this CD was startling to me. 24-bit/96 kHz recording technology has a lot to offer the currently huge CD market.

3. DVD-A has a lot going for it: a booming video market, wider frequency and dynamic range. Oh yes, plus that wonderful marketing advantage six channels, one for the mighty bass, of sound. For many typical home entertainment systems, the addition of the sub-woofer (with its ability to fill in the bottom end of both music and movies), will do more for the average American consumers enjoyment of audio and video than the nifty effect of 5-way surround sound.

My guess is that a fracturing of the audio/video market is taking place. A comminuted fracture of three parts:

The low-end two-channel sound, enhanced by HDCD, 24-bit/96 kHz and MP3 recordings, will continue for teenagers, low-end and second systems, and car audio.

The DVD, with movies and music, will commandeer the living room, the big screen TV and the familys six channel sound system. Speakers, starting with the sub-woofer, will meld with amplifiers (which they should have done a long time ago). They will all become self-powered mini-monitors coupled to combination player/tuner/pre-amp/control systems. Inputs on the back of the speaker will allow upscale bi-amping, so audiophiles can add more power to the basic unit. DVD music concerts and videos will rule the audio market. NOT specialized format discs like SACD and DVD-A.

Dad, if he wants to listen to high-end music, will have to stick with mechanical black vinyl discs, which will still exist because the quality of basic vinyl players has improved so much. Or he will graduate to a six-channel SACD player with Direct to Disc recordings.

Books were written analyzing Sony's mistake with Beta, especially when it looked like IBM was making the same mistake with what seemed to be a proprietary operating system and ROM on the PC. When the CD was introduced, Sony was carefully to virtually give away the format as a new standard. With prices on SACD players crashing and true six-channel DVD-A audio not yet established, it is still possible for a format war between SACD and DVD-A to develop

[jt1stcav]

This is just my opinion...I think SACD and DVD-A is a great medium, but multichannel sound for DVD movies is where it should end. Two channel SACDs are fine for music, but I doubt whether SACD and DVD-A will ever replace the humble CD, especially those recorded today in HDCD and 24/96+ formats. And I don't want to see two channel SACDs go the way of Beta or Quadraphonic!

Confused? I was. But when I hear a live rock and jazz band, a symphony orchestra, and a piano or pipe organ recital, I hear the music in front of me only, without any special effects or other instruments or vocals to the sides or from behind. I'm not talking about hall ambience and reverberation (and that can also be achieved somewhat with excellent front L&R loudspeaker placement within your room); I just feel that for accurate music reproduction, especially in a live recording, two channel only SACDs and the original CD are the best compact disc formats in faithfully reproducing music for home use (today's LP pressings are a given). When I listen to both my brother's multichannel SACDs and DVD-As of Peter Gabrial, Diana Krall, Fleetwood Mac, Pink Floyd, etc., I also hear extra guitars, drums, or vocals through the surrounds and rear center channel that I doubt any of us would ever hear if it were a live event you'd be attending in a club or auditorium! Gunshots and jet fighters whizzing by through the L&R sides and rear surround speakers from a motion picture DVD in DD/DTS is one thing (that's fine for HT), but it's quite something else if you want to faithfully hear your music the way it was performed live on stage or in a studio.

Just my two cents worth...

[kenratboy]

jt1stcav:

I think a lot of it has to do with people's systems. At work, most of what I deal with is telling people how and why to set up their systems, and finding compromise solutions that work for them. The best recording in the world isn't worth a danm is the system is blowful. I think the future of audio is going to be like what Yamaha, Denon, and others are doing - having adaptive room setup mics and those systems to make a less than idea setup sound good.

Homes are getting more and more complex, and it is getting very hard to get a system properly set up unless you have a pro come in and do a lot of work and adjustments.

[minn_male42]

i think that the one thing that will really help both formats survive is more lower cost players...

the last best buy flyer had two new universal players (DVD, SACD, DVD-audio, CD) for under $200.... a toshiba and samsung if i'm not mistaken....

this added to the pioneer 563a player....

if you get a best buy type of company pushing these players the demand for the discs will go up and we will all get more titles.....

[jt1stcav]

I hear ya, Ken. And I agree for the most part; if the system sucks, even the best recordings will blow. But in this case that wasn't the point I was trying to make. You've probably seen the posts of both my brother's systems (both are Klipsch owners and chops is also a forum member), and their components are top-quality high-end models, not the crap consumer junk you'd find at Target or Walmart. What I'm refering to is not even the quality of SACD recordings, but the fact that bongos coming from one surround speaker and a rhythm guitar coming from another is not a realistic musical representation IMO. Most likely the musicians on stage are all up front (left, center, right), not to the sides, that's all. That's why I'm not a big fan of multichannel music SACDs and DVD-As. For HT use it's great, but for natural sounding recordings with proper instrument placement, well, I'm not so sure.

[wmbrady]

Hey gang,

I have been upgrading my system for several months now. One item I bought is the $149 Pioneer "Universal" disc player. It's very good, great dynamic range, transient and frequency response.

I then bought a collection of SACDs and DVD-As. I prefer the DVD-A format, you get more: multi-channel (SACD is 2 ch.), some discs offer several options for screen display, fine art, lyrics, cover note extracts, biographys.

In a general sense, as from the start of HiFi, the mic placement and mix vary from poor to excellent for both formats. I find more difference in mic/mix than between the SACD and DVD-A discs.

As far as the usefulness of multi-channel vs stereo, as already been said by other members, music recordings don't always benefit from it. In my case, however, I have a number of "live" performances which properly miked and mixed benefit greatly from surround.

I think DVD-A will win out over SACD. But there is a disadvantage to multi channel vs stereo run through Dolby Pro Logic in a good receiver/amp. You may lose some control. My reading the specs and manuals on the various pieces of multi channel gear lead me to belive things like parametric equalizers and relative gain for the various channels may be lost to the user. The sound is forced to be like the director "intended" vs the way you might like it or your room demands. Because of the mic/mix problem mentioned above, I often change front or rear balance, front to rear balance or equalization on the fly but I don't have a warm feeling that my new multi channel outfit will allow that.

As for CD "sound" vs vinyl vs SACD vs DVD-A, I find the CD inferior to the new and oldest formats. I'm still buying LPs. CDs fall down for me when there are high frequency sharp transient times in the performance. This often happens in my classical material and have you listened to the latest incarnation of "Tubular Bells"? })

[jdm56]

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On 6/13/2004 2:05:16 PM jt1stcav wrote:

Confused? I was. But when I hear a live rock and jazz band, a symphony orchestra, and a piano or pipe organ recital, I hear the music in front of me only, without any special effects or other instruments or vocals to the sides or from behind. I'm not talking about hall ambience and reverberation (and that can also be achieved somewhat with excellent front L&R loudspeaker placement within your room); I just feel that for accurate music reproduction, especially in a live recording, two channel only SACDs and the original CD are the best compact disc formats in faithfully reproducing music for home use (today's LP pressings are a given). When I listen to both my brother's multichannel SACDs and DVD-As of Peter Gabrial, Diana Krall, Fleetwood Mac, Pink Floyd, etc., I also hear extra guitars, drums, or vocals through the surrounds and rear center channel that I doubt any of us would ever hear if it were a live event you'd be attending in a club or auditorium! Gunshots and jet fighters whizzing by through the L&R sides and rear surround speakers from a motion picture DVD in DD/DTS is one thing (that's fine for HT), but it's quite something else if you want to faithfully hear your music the way it was performed live on stage or in a studio.

Just my two cents worth...

----------------

This is the argument you hear the most against multi-channel music, and I have used it myself. And I still prefer that the bulk of the music should be located in front. After all, that is the direction our ears are aimed. But after listening to a number of multi-channel SACD and DVD-A discs, I think many audiophiles are missing the boat, by not opening up their minds and their ears to a new paradigm of home music reproduction; one that is not tied to, or limited by, an attachment to any preconceived notions of how music should be listened to. Notions that have been formed by how we hear music performed in public, where considerations have to be made for the accommodation of relatively large numbers of people.

What I'm trying to say is, "throw out you preconceptions, with respect to where the sound is coming from, and open your mind and ears to tastefully rendered multi-channel music"!

One more illustration: Suppose you could have your favorite band or singer perform just for you. What would be the ideal set-up? I don't think it would be anything like the typical public performance venue, with respect to distance from the performers and relative placement of instrumentation and voices on the stage. For me, it would be a club sized environment, with the band arrayed in an arc in front of me, extending to my extreme left and right sides. SACD and DVD-A multi-channel have the capacity to deliver just such an acoustic. jmho

[Lurch]

Here's my nonscientific marketing data: Yesterday, while browsing thru the DVD-A/SACD bin at my local Best Buy, I sneezed. This was brought on by disturbing the dust which coated the discs in these bins. They were also horribly unorganized. I am also the only person I've seen browsing in this section.

As for the marketing wisdom of the formats, I don't see much of a market for either. CDs succeeded because LPs were/are noisy, cantankerous beasts, which the average Joe/Jane did not have the time or money to properly maintain. CDs came along and promised "perfect sound forever" and folks thought that was pretty awesome.

"You mean I can set my half-eaten jelly donut on it, rinse it off and it still plays????"

And, you can put it in a portable player and take it for a jog or play it in your car. Couldn't do that with your LPs! You needed a tape deck to record a copy for portable or vehicular use.

Guess what? DVD-A and SACD are tying folks back down to the listening room just like LPs.

And you'll be hard-pressed to discern much of an audible difference between stereo versions on SACD and CD. You mainly have to be prepared to sit in the sweet spot and listen intently while not doing something else (which few people outside of forums like these are willing to do).

How much of the percieved differences are due to proper remastering and not the more "advanced" format? Is there some reason why CDs are suddenly not very exciting for the BIG hardware manufacturers? Well, I would say that perhaps it has something to do with the royalties on CDs running out. And now, we have a format war, because everyone wants to have a piece of the next format. Same with HD-DVD.

Anyways, getting back on topic......

Has anyone been so drawn into SACDs and DVD-As that they can't listen to stereo any more???

For me, I have not been overwhelmed by either. I've noticed that some instruments have come forward in the mix, which shouldn't. I was hoping for a significant improvement in the "You are there" factor, but it hasn't materialized. Frankly, I haven't heard anything that is worth the added effort, expense and other negatives associated with either format. Granted, I haven't listened to much of either, but if someone could point out a particularly successful multichannel experience, I'd love to hear about it!

Jeff

[jdm56]

Hey, that sounds like my "local" (60 miles away) Best Buy!

Jeff, you're "non-scientific marketing data" is pretty spot-on, IMO. Hybrid discs are the only way SACD and/or DVD-A will ever supplant CD in the marketplace. That would give everyone what they want, pretty much. Hi-rez and multi-channel for those so inclined, and CD for the masses and for portability.

[picky]

I believe that multi-channel disks are here to stay, but the formats are just having a little trouble getting started. It's been my experience that when I begin to discuss DVD-A or SACD with people my own age (40s-50s) that I know outside the hobby, their faces quickly become blank. They've not heard of it, nor do they know anyone who does other than myself. But, to be fair, most of my friends are really not much into the latest technology, so they tend to own older DVD players that won't handle the new disks. They have told me that as long as their DVD player still plays movies, why should they run out and spend more money on a new player and then spend even more money on the expensive disks just to listen to music when they are usually just using it for background while doing other things anyway. I guess that's a pretty good point seeing how if you are listening from the next room, you aren't going to hear the channel separation or the improved quality any way. Many of them tell me they must be doing something else while they listen to their music. They don't want to just "sit there". I understand their point.

-Again, this is not a point I am trying to make against the medium, I am simply relating to you what has been my experience with the "average listener", being someone whom I know.

I have found that Circuit City posts a lot of multi-channel disks for sale on its web site.

It has also been my experience that for the longest time, since the advent of the CD, I had lost interest in actually sitting down in front of the speakers while doing nothing else, to do some real, critical listening like I used to when only vinyl was all that I listened to. Since building our HT, I have begun to rediscover just how both relaxing and exhilarating listening can be on our wonderful new Klipsch system. Add to this the DVD-A and SACD disks we have bought and all I can say is WOW! Even more so, I am thrilled with the concert DVDs I have begun to collect. For us anyway, HT is quickly bringing our music listening full circle since the "good ole' days". Listening seems now better than ever to my wife and I! What a great time to be alive!