mikebse2a3 Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Colin wrote: Since Gingkos research showed smaller racquet-size balls to be better, those are the ones I would use. Their advice is to weigh the front-end components and then use one ball for every ten pounds. So if the receiver weighs 15 and the CD player is five pounds, that is twenty pounds or two balls. Obviously two balls under the front-end equipment is NOT stable, so at least a third ball is required. That means however, that ten pounds of weight should be added as a platform between the units and the balls. A small $3 paving stone is dense and weighs about 20 pounds, meaning that with four balls (40/4), the combination makes a vibration isolation platform similar to the Vibraplane and the one I wrote a few years ago. In an article for EnjoyTheMusic.com, Save $1680, Simple to make platform isolates vibrations: Brings out details for CD and record players, on Tweak Page One (http://enjoythemusic.com/tweaks/), I detailed how air and rubber isolation improve the sound of front-end equipment. Mass also helps. The weight of the stone and components lowers the resonance of low energy waves, the bottom component of human hearing range. The front-end equipment should be coupled to each other, with space for air between the units, and the heavy platform. Blutack or sticky rubber is good. Racquet or tennis balls, cut in half are also popular with tweaking audiophiles. Personal correspondence with a reader last year indicated that large bubble wrap under a thick maple platform had bass extension almost the equal in measurement to the inner tube under a marble slab, with no bass hump at all. Bass was extended and taut. Vertical and lateral stability were second only to the small bubble wrap. So yes, four racquet balls under a 40 pound load seems to be the recommended ratio. tell me if you hear a difference at moderate to loud levels THANKS for the tip Colin! I tried three racquet balls under the CD player with extra weight and this is what I've noticed.The CD I played was JUNIOR WELLS (come on in this house) Telarc. 1st: Dynamics were improved. If you remove the balls your impression is like the volume was turned down. 2nd: the vocals, guitar and piano are more realistic and in the room with you. 3rd: imaging isn't as vague with more depth layering. 4th: Bass is tighter and easy to follow. 5th: I noticed improvements at all volume levels. I was curious and asked my girl friend to listen without telling her what I thought and her responce was: 1st Did you turn the Volume down! 2nd: the guitar is more real, everything is just more real sounding! Three racquet balls at wal-mart $2.50 man talk bang for the buck!! Thanks Again for the tip Colin mike b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 It's nice to know that cheap alternatives to expensive cones and spikes are also just as functional at dampening vibrations. My bro used new, virgin tennis balls rather than well used and abused tennis balls, plus clean new balls look a whole lot better than the old nasty ones! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 You could spray paint the tennis balls, for that nice black look. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Is that a Discwasher box (woodgrain) and cover I see under the table? Had mine for years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 ---------------- On 7/4/2004 3:54:04 PM picky wrote: Is that a Discwasher box (woodgrain) and cover I see under the table? Had mine for years! ---------------- I happen to have 2 discwasher kits like that which I'll never use. If anyone is interested, PM me and you can have one cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 I have two as well. A friend gave me his stereo last Fall, which is how I got the JBL L56 speakers. He didn't have a turntable anymore, but the DiscWasher was in with the stuff. The amp was a honkin' big JVC that had died. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 I tried various types of balls and half balls under my components, tennis, handball, squash, etc. my best results came from a totally different area. I used "dead" balls from a physics experiment set, the set contained "live" balls, which are roughly the same as a squash ball, they bounce a bit when dropped. the "dead" balls look exactly the same but do not bounce at all when dropped, this is because they are made from a material with a very low Coefficient of Restitution (i.e. butyl rubber), which means that the kinetic energy from a collision (drop on floor) is dissipated as heat inside the ball rather than returned as bounce. this translates nicely into working for vibration isolation since vibrations reaching the ball will be disippated in the same manner (after all vibrations are just lower magnitude kinetic energy), I have settled on these dead balls sitting in vibrapods (mainly to hold them in position) to isolate my amp and TT instead of any bouncy balls (i.e. tennis, squash, handball, etc.) and could not be happier with the results. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosypup Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 This makes for interesting reading. I'd like to try it as I imagine there will be a big difference. so is it racketballs or tennis balls? half-balls or full ones? I would assume that racketballs being a little more squeezable might be better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Thanks, Mike, Tony and Mark. I learn more every day: my goal is to catch up to the rest of you guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 ---------------- On 7/4/2004 8:27:22 PM sunnysal wrote: I tried various types of balls and half balls under my components, tennis, handball, squash, etc. my best results came from a totally different area. I used "dead" balls from a physics experiment set, the set contained "live" balls, which are roughly the same as a squash ball, they bounce a bit when dropped. the "dead" balls look exactly the same but do not bounce at all when dropped, this is because they are made from a material with a very low Coefficient of Restitution (i.e. butyl rubber), which means that the kinetic energy from a collision (drop on floor) is dissipated as heat inside the ball rather than returned as bounce. this translates nicely into working for vibration isolation since vibrations reaching the ball will be disippated in the same manner (after all vibrations are just lower magnitude kinetic energy), I have settled on these dead balls sitting in vibrapods (mainly to hold them in position) to isolate my amp and TT instead of any bouncy balls (i.e. tennis, squash, handball, etc.) and could not be happier with the results. regards, tony ---------------- Logical thinking would tell me that the more absorbing the isolaton device the better.I can remember trying different turntable mats when I owned a Thorens TD147. I tried the orginal hard mat,a very dead rubbery mat, and a felt type mat and all three had good and bad qualities.You would think the very damped rubber mat would give the best sound by damping the unwanted vibrations and indeed their did seem to be some increase in clarity but at the same time the sound was also kind of lifeless. I don't know but maybe the well damped mat was creating damping in just certain bands and thus making things stand out unnaturally I just know that even though the orginal hard rubber mat had less clarity its overall presentation was more pleasing. I've found equipment isolation and room treatments to have similar effects. I can treat the room and increase clarity but loose the life of the music and every equipment isolation I've tried has usually had some kind of good and bad result and that is why I was kind of suprised that the racquet balls under the CD player seem to be all good but I do believe the results someone else gets will depend on their individual equipment/setup. The main thing is for a few dollars people can try these cheap alternatives instead of spending $100 or $1000 on isolation devices. I have to keep reminding myself that all this we are doing is stereophony and at this time we are just creating an illusion of a real event. So with the limitations of what we are doing and our equipment I ultimately will tune things for whatever gives me the most realistic illusion knowing that I'm using alot of imperfect things trying to create this illusion! mikeb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 you can buy sorbothane in sheet of various different durameters and use that to damp a platform, or maybe even stuff into a tennis ball half...IMHO sorbothane is an incredible isolation material, I have used it between two pieces of wood as a platform and that thing really absorbed vibration! I settled on the dead balls mostly for aesthetic reasons. I still have in my "projects to do" list a nicer looking isolation platform that will use both the sorbothane sheets and some black hole 5 sheets I have lying around. I highly recommend finding some dead balls (I will do a search tonight with yahoo to see if I can find a retailer) and auditioning them in place of any type of live ball. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 Hi Tony Audioquest has sorbothane feet and sheets but I don't know how much they cost maybe you can find some reasonable alternative sources also. I believe I have an older style sorbothane feet called Big Feet by Audioquest and when I get time I'll try these under the CD Player and see what happens. I hope I didn't sound like I'm not for Dead type materials. Actually I've had alot of fun trying Sand in freezer bags, Small Inner tubes(For Lawn Mower Tires), Metal style cones and Air Bubble Packaging and various rubber mats. I just like to keep an open mind and try things especially if there cheap to try incase I don't like the results. Whats funny is alot of these things will change the sound sometimes but not always to suit my system at the time. I would encourage others to play with isolation devices just be carefull about spending lots of money on them but you can learn and have fun with the cheaper stuff. mike b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 mcmaster-carr (www.mcmaster.com, just search for "sorbothane") has sorbothane sheets at the best prices in the market, still looking for dead balls though...I have nothing at all against other methods tried by other people, I think the only way to decide what works is for each of us to experiment. Though I have pretty much come to the conclusion that dead materials make more sense and work better for me but as always YMMV, etc. best regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 The sorbothane sounds like it would be a hot ticket, pancaked between two slabs of granite or marble. I picked up five scrap slabs of green marble last week at a local custom shop to make a stand, but they turned out to be a little heavy in total. Down to the last one now, as all my wife's baking friends went gaga over them during the weeked. Colleen figured since I got them for free, I wouldn't mind if she gave one..or two.. or three...or four away - but she didn't give them all away! We played sound isolation like crazy on the sub, and I got to spend three weeks running around with a scope on every single piece of operating and powered machinery on board. A real PIA, but dense rubber does wonders with isolation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 Thanks Tony for the www.mcmaster.com site. I would really like to try the dead balls you mention if you do locate any. Really interesting looking at the Durometer Range for hardness of common rubber,foam, plastic,and other objects. I noticed the Sorbothane they offer is rated at 40, 50, and 70 on the Shore 00 range and a racquet ball was rated at 35 on the Shore 00 range. Of course the racquet ball has air inside and how this might change things I'm not sure but I suppose it would act somewhat like a spring force. So if we drilled a hole in it to relieve the air compression it would be an interesting experiment. mikeb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Please quit saying "dead balls" -- it bothers me for some reason. I still say it's tough to beat Deflex -- the stuff is about as dead as it gets. http://www.deflex.co.uk/cgi-bin/deflexshop/deflexshop.cgi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/5/2004 10:55:30 PM mikebse2a3 wrote: Thanks Tony for the www.mcmaster.com site. I would really like to try the dead balls you mention if you do locate any. Really interesting looking at the Durometer Range for hardness of common rubber,foam, plastic,and other objects. I noticed the Sorbothane they offer is rated at 40, 50, and 70 on the Shore 00 range and a racquet ball was rated at 35 on the Shore 00 range. Of course the racquet ball has air inside and how this might change things I'm not sure but I suppose it would act somewhat like a spring force. So if we drilled a hole in it to relieve the air compression it would be an interesting experiment. mikeb ---------------- mikebse2a3, I think you and sunnysal are are both touching issues that are discussed on some pages provided on the Symposium Accoustic site. I am not selling their products, but believe as one of the leaders in this particular area (vibration control and isolation), you may find some additional ideas to incorporate in inexpensive experimentations. As always, each individuals acceptance or willingness to experiment with ideas, and their own individual system, room, etc. will determine how much utility can be obtained from the reading material provided. Here's the URL to a starting point begining with "The Science of Vibration Control" and the additional pages listed after. http://www.symposiumusa.com/technology.shtml Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 jazman is right, I was essentially trying to build a symposium table with my sorbothane and black hole pads...the real version was a little steep for my blood. btw dead balls rule! tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Thanks Jazman I appreciate any info and will be checking the site out. By the way for anyone interested I did try drilling a hole in one of the racquet balls (to release any air pressure) just to see what would happen and as far as the balls bouncing from about 7ft they both still bounce approximately the same amount and they both squash the same under the CD Player.For the purpose were trying to use them for I don't think it will make any difference letting the air escape.I guess the ball structure itself is the predominate factor in this case. AK-4 what name would you like in place of "the not live" ball mikeb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnWhite Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 ---------------- On 7/5/2004 11:34:44 PM AK-4 wrote: Please quit saying "dead balls" -- it bothers me for some reason. I still say it's tough to beat Deflex -- the stuff is about as dead as it gets. http://www.deflex.co.uk/cgi-bin/deflexshop/deflexshop.cgi ---------------- What? dead balls is better than wacked balls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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