damonrpayne Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Those speaker wire threads are always a fun time, so... Does anyone have links to info debunking the magical properties of audio interconnects? I was hoping for something along the lines of what the gentleman from McIntosh (Roger Russell) had to say about speaker wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Damon, yesterday I stopped in at the $$$$ hifi store in St. Louis to pick up some pricey(for me) patch cords. At $50 a set, I asked the owner to verify they were low capacitance as advertised. It was an interesting act, as the cheapest set was the only set that measured as advertised. Both cords were a uniform value, and met what they claimed. EVERY other cord tested were not to spec, and varied by up to 100% higher capacitance between individual stereo cords! When you buy yours, make sure they meet spec and present a uniform value - not to be anal - but if you are buying cords, they should operate as they are marketed. I ended up spending $20 on two sets at the store that both measured the cords and offered a buyback should they fail in any regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I have learned a lot in a very short time, by going to the audiogon form, and go to the interconnect threads, very informative, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I'm particularly fond of the ones with the prayer beads built in and blessed by your choice of a Rabbi, Priest, Imam, Minister, Guru, Dali or Zen master. The best ones are ths Shinto's they have soul living within them you'll swear. Rick I'd say more but they ALL made fun of me when I commented on the ones I made for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Rick, I didn't make fun of you. I am ALWAYS for the experimenters and DIYers... I believe personal experience over-rules book learning every time except if it is a known danger. Verifying results of experiments with repeatability is the core of scientific research. That's why wires are not just wires for me. I wasn't going to comment here as it seems like a somewhat hostile thread to the pro-cable argument, but what the heck! My experimentation and setup started with interconnects. I have all separates, hence alot of interconnects. My tube mono heads (which I have retired to the closet) only had RCA plugs. Needless to say I had a lot of interconnects, and they were all old patchcords from Rat-Shack. A friend from college was working as a salesman in a local stereo shop so I was allowed to take things home and try things out before I actually bought them. This turned out to be a not-so-good-thing, especially when they let me take home the McIntosh gear, bit that's another story... So, I started with some Audio-Quest interconnects, and worked my way up to silver stuff from there. It has been a long progression that (to their dismay) I drug my stero friends along too, by demo-ing and A/B-ing different cables. We have all arrived at the same decisions, and now all use silver. Kimber AGC silver is our hands-down fav. Granted, they are NOT worth the money. But that's the price one has to pay if one goes the retail route. Once you have that sound, it is not easy to give it up. I found that I could not live with the system sounding less it was capable of once I heard what it was capable of... There is alot of hype surrounding wires because they are a retail product. But let's face it, are new Klipschorns actually worth $8K a pair? NOT! but that's what one has to pay if one wants them. None-the-less, I would want to own a pair anyway but $8K is a little out of my league. The point that I am making is that there IS a difference in cabling. All wire exhibits resistance and reactance to current flow, that's a fact of physics. Some metals and alloys of metals have qualities that effect current flow, such as steel (relatively not too good), copper (better), and silver (best). Copper is predominant due to its cost and effectiveness. However, it is certainly not the "best" at electrical conduction; it is the most COST EFFECTIVE. Consider the types of wire structures available and their uses. For example, the "leitz" vs. the solid core coils that abound in todays electronics. They exhibit easily measurable differences in electrical performance. If wire was just wire, then I must ask why would there be differences? Another point to consider is that not only is metalurgy a factor in conductivity, but so is the diameter of said wire. Why are higher current wires so thick? Aside from the fact that they will burn up (or melt) from resistance to excessive or unrestricted current flow (beyond the respective rating) why should that be if all wires are the same? In most high current applications the use of multiple strand wires are used when there is a flexibility requirement involved. Even the heaviest of duty power lines are multi-stranded for this purpose. This brings us to current flow and the skin effect, which you may read about as being presented in literature as both good or bad, depending. The fact is that ALL current tends to travel along the outermost surface of a conductor. The use of multiple strand wire presents a larger overall surface area than a solid wire. Hence, less resistance. The goal of any wire is to present the least resistance to current flow. Some wires achieve this better than others based on several factors, such as the metalurgy, wire structure, overall diameter (effective surface area), overall length, connectors and/or surface interuptions such as solder joints and the like, and inherent reactance from all of the former interacting with frequency, voltage and current being applied to the wire in the circuit. This allows wiring and cables to have a resistive rating, a capacitance rating and an inductance rating, all of which indicate signal LOSS. So, if any one wants to argue the pros-or-cons of certain cables, fine. I won't deny that there are a lot of unfounded claims for cables these days. But NOBODY with half a clue should reasonably have a problem with any of what I have said above indicating that there IS a difference in the wire itself. And these elements constitute a certain level of signal loss in a given wire. Now I am sure that there are those who may agree in principle with what I have said, but would make the point that the differences are so minute that they are either untestable or at least un-hearable. The fact that wires are rated for a given wattage (voltage x current) or at least an amperage rating indicate that the former assertion is certainly not true. The later assertion, however, is one more liable to result in controversy. For my part, as I stated previously, I would not have bought them at all had I not been convinced by my own listening experiments that they did, in fact, have an easily discernable difference that I felt added to my enjoyment of the music I regularily listened to. The fact that my "cheap-skate" audio buddies also found it to be inarguable also convinces me that it "wasn't just me" or a placebo effect induced by the "new gear syndrom". I will concede that the retail prices of said cables and interconnects are outlandish and totally unfounded. That is an undeniable fact. But that is not reason enough to totally discount the validity of the physics involved. If anyone doubts that what I have said is true, then try it for yourself. I certainly will not call you a liar if your results do not agree with mine. However, I have tried it for myself and I have told you what I've found. I did not read it in a book, or see it on the internet or formed my opinion in any way other than trying it out for myself. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 ---------------- On 7/14/2004 2:42:21 PM D-MAN wrote: .... such as steel (relatively not too good), copper (better), and silver (best). Copper is predominant due to its cost and effectiveness. However, it is certainly not the "best" at electrical conduction; it is the most COST EFFECTIVE. DM ---------------- I would like to point out that gold is a better conductor than silver. I am in the camp that if the size, insulation connections and shielding is correct, the difference between different wires is not audible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 You would think my fingers would be tired after all that, but I want to add one thing that I forgot to mention: I found that the interconnects from the source are the most critical in that the signals involved in particular from a source like a cd player are quite small compared to an amplified signal such as from a pre-amp. Small signal through a "higher" resistance wire = less signal. The first to go is the very small "nuance" and transient portions of the signal that would otherwise define the "sound-staging" information. There is where you will most likely "hear" the differences between interconnects. That is the part I find the most enjoyable and lends realism to the performance...so if you start anywhere in your testing, I would recommend starting there. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Good posts DM! Since most of us Klipsch types are cheap SOBs, remember we listen to 8 grand not 80 grand speakers, I recommend that we build our own cables if we have the talent. I am a proponent of two twisted strands of OFC silver plate with a shield or foil if not both. Along with a good set of gold plated RCA jacks and a careful silver soldering job, I think that one can get 95% of the sound of the expensive brands for 5% of the cost. One thing to remember, if you are building your own cables from shielded twisted wire, just ground the shield on one end. This will help avoid ground loops. That is the reason that I don't agree with the school that advocates coax for interconnects, using the shield as the negative conductor it is not truely a shield. The signal from my CD players is stronger than that from my preamp! I run the inputs to my amps wide open off the preamp but have to crank them way down when plugging the CDs directly into the amp. Some day I'm going to get a Rega tone arm with silver one piece wires to the pre-amp like Incognito. I'm sure that that is where I can get the most bang for the buck with wires with millivolts and all. Smitty, Silver is a better conductor than gold as it has more electrons in it's valience layer. Gold is more noble and less prone to oxidation because of this and makes longer lasting terminations exposed to the atmosphere. And it looks pretty!! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 In order of decreasing conductance per cross sectional area: # silver # copper # gold # aluminum # iron # steel # brass # bronze # mercury # graphite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 CABLES & CONNECTORS First, regarding tight connectors: Try using a contact cleaner/lubricant such as Caig Laboratories ProGold G5. They also make several other products you might be interested in. For all the concern about speaker wire & interconnect cables nowadays, Im surprised more people arent paying attention to the basic things that are equally, if not more important. How can one expect ANY cable to sound good with inferior contact surfaces? Use this stuff even on newly purchased cable connectors & equipment. Its amazing how much crap this stuff removes, even from new gear. It bonds to & protects plated metal surfaces & their base metal providing enhanced conductivity. Your connectors will slide in & out smoothly. And this stuff eliminates the rampant microscopic electrical arcing that occurs between all non-hard wired connections. Second: Superior cable/connector construction is important for optimum performance. On the other hand, this is an area of boutique audio which is often no more than marketing hype & excessively high prices, even from companies who actually make really good products that sell for reasonable prices. Caveat Emptor. Whats the point in using 10 long phase aligned speaker cable when the wavelength of 20KHz is 49,104 feet long? To quote Mr. PWK, I wonder which ear he was listening with? There is more phase misalignment between your ears or by moving your head a fraction of an inch than there will ever be in your speaker/interconnect wire. That being said, stick to the fundamentals. Good high quality connectors, quality metals & plating, superior shielding & dielectric performance, etc. Can a difference be heard? YES. There are differences. However the difference in upgrading to a better speaker is far more noticeable & cost effective. The recording itself produces far more variation. And then there is, as Ive said before, room acoustics. How do you expect to hear what anything really sounds like without paying critical attention to room acoustics first? Afterall, what you are really 'listening' to is the room itself, and yes rooms do suffer from 'acoustic distortion'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Considering the above being said................... I have designed the ultimate speaker cable. Its TRUE. It is a DIY project that anyone can do provided you obtain precisely the correct materials. These cables will produce the most dramatic improvement in your system, more than any single thing will, guaranteed! I made these cables by stringing together southern north pole magnetically petrified hardwood balls of various sizes using tightly rolled up BLACK electrical tape. The entire cable structure is completely suspended in Strawberry Banana Jello pudding which also provides the shielding. I used common straight pins at both ends for grounding. The cables are terminated using invisible gas filled (methane) highly polished uranium rods. Maximum performance can be obtained from these cables by suspending them precisely 0.003 meters from the ceiling or wall surfaces (not the floor). For those of you not so inclined to take on a project of this magnitude I can make these for you in any length up to 17 for $1,000,000,000.00 each (US). Additional lengths cost $1 per foot up to 5,280 feet. You can contact me at Bob_Tillicum@yahoo.com Try this DIY speaker cable project. Works great! It is a DIY project that anyone can do provided you obtain precisely the correct materials. These cables will produce the most dramatic improvement in your system, more than any single thing will, guaranteed! I made these cables by stringing together southern north pole magnetically petrified hardwood balls of various sizes using tightly rolled up BLACK electrical tape. The entire cable structure is completely suspended in a Strawberry Banana Jello pudding (must be Jello brand) sprinkled with loose debris from #2 grade steel wool which also provides the shielding (I've found that soaking the steel wool in a coffee can filled with water for a week so that the iron oxides build up on the wool improves the shielding characteristic by a whole 0.0001%)(Beaver brand steel wool works best). I used common straight pins at both ends for grounding. The cables are terminated using invisible gas filled (methane) highly polished uranium rods. Maximum performance can be obtained from these cables by suspending them precisely 0.003 meters from the ceiling or wall surfaces (not the floor). For those of you not so inclined to take on a project of this magnitude I can make these for you in any length up to 17 for $1,000,000,000.00 each (US$). Additional lengths cost $1 per foot up to a maximun of 5,280 feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 check out these links: http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/cables.htm http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/acoustics/RPG-Roomacoustics.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 ---------------- On 7/14/2004 3:19:37 PM cablacksmith wrote: I would like to point out that gold is a better conductor than silver. I am in the camp that if the size, insulation connections and shielding is correct, the difference between different wires is not audible. ---------------- Sorry, actually silver is a better 'conductor', having slightly less resistance than gold, however this may be affected by the purity of the particular metal being 'tested'. However, gold resists tarnishing/oxidation much better, which is primarily the reason it's used for 'higher-quality' connectors. Actually, even copper has better conductivity than gold. http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/part7/page3.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 arto, if you add nitrogen gas to freeze them solid, they'll work better and sell like hotcakes! I prefer using nitreous on mine, though... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 ---------------- On 7/14/2004 5:56:38 PM D-MAN wrote: arto, if you add nitrogen gas to freeze them solid, they'll work better and sell like hotcakes! I prefer using nitreous on mine, though... DM ---------------- Now there's a thought!.......I give you 10% of the profits D-man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Cool, dude. We better patent it first! It comes with its own build-in hype, so its a sure bet that someone's gonna steal it from us and reap all of the profits we rightfully deserve... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I recently added silver connects from my Blueberry to my VPI and found the results to be significant. It was an easy change for me since they are on loan and didn't cost me anything. The added crispness and detail on the high-end is especially apparent when listening to classical lps. I do occasionally find them to be a little on the thin side for rock but overall a great set of cables (Siltechs to be exact). I don't know if I would pay for them but I'm enjoying the free ride for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Whatever happened to coathangers? JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 If I ever get the chance... I am sure I could NEVER tell speaker wire apart consistently in a blind test; unless one is a mess conductance wise, or highly colored. Interconnects I may have a bit better chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinlr Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 I am in the same camp as DM regarding silver. I, however, think that the differences may decrease as signal level goes up. There is another important point that contibutes to the pro-silver argument that I havn't seen mentioned. That is that silver oxide is conductive whereas copper oxide is not. This may be where the real difference comes in. Regarding signal level, I noticed a pretty significant aural difference when I rewired my tonearm with Van den Hul Siver and then used D-502 to get from the arm to the pre-amp. By the way, I did the tonearm rewiring myself (what a b****!) and built the D-502 lead from bulk D-502 with my own RCA's. Used the silver solder that the Van den Hul dealer in Holland gave me to put it all together. As we all know, an MC cartridge is an order of magnitude lower in output than a MM cartridge. A typical MC has an output of about 0.5 mV. Has anyone noticed that, if you put your digital VOM on the AC scale and simply hold the probes in the air and wave them around, you usually get anywhere from 0.2 up to 0.35 mv? This is just the c*** floating around nowdays from all the wireless stuff we have now. Obviously shielding becomes very important as does the integrity of the signal at these miniscule levels. It is in this area where I really notice the silver vs. copper difference. Other than the MC interface, I have no experience with silver so I can't comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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