KLIPSCHORN MODS--OUTBOARD ACTIVE CROSSOVER

[RAPTORMAN]

Has anyone here done any mods on their Khorns?? A friend of a friend came by to hear my Khorns because he is so curious on how they sound.. His comments were all positive-- huge soundstage, great detail and so on. His only negative comment is that the sound is "not tight". He suggested that I should find out if I can use an "active outboard crossovers". I wonder if this was done before by anybody in this forum--and how do they like it.

[triode]

The important thing is what do you think of the sound? What kind of crossovers do you have in your Khorns? - I am running type 'A's. I'm not sure what he means, but I guess he had to say something. What kind of amplification do you have?

BTW - What kind of system does your friend have? Amp, Speakers?

[radiob]

Make sure there tight in the corners and your other components are right for the K-horns. K-horns have one thing more than all other speakers and that is tight bass.

[NOSValves]

----------------

On 8/11/2004 5:54:19 PM radiob wrote:

Make sure there tight in the corners and your other components are right for the K-horns. K-horns have one thing more than all other speakers and that is tight bass. ----------------

Not really the Lascala has tighter bass then the Khorn. The Khorn has lower more room filling bass at least IMHO.

[RAPTORMAN]

My khorns are 1990. I am not sure what kind of crossover they came with that year. I am presently using a KR audio antares with the KR KT88 SE. Lazarus preamp CIII. The friend's system-- KR monoblocks with 300B SET. His got 2 way speakers custom made by Bill Martenelli from WWW.Woodhorns.com in Rochester NY. He gave me a demo on his system and they sounded really niece. He is using an outboard active crossover. I have to get more info on his setup--all I remember is that the sound that I heard from his system is very detailed and tight.

[thebes]

There's a lot of people here that have done various things to their Khorns. In terms of crossovers we have a couple of specialists, one, DeanG must be away this week because he hasn't posted. Try a "Search" in the upper right hand corner of the forum and you'd be suprised at what you'll find.

Something tells me your Khorns sound really sweet and you're friend is just jealous because he dropped a ton more dough into his ssytem then you did.

It's your ears and of course we here at the Klipsch Forum absolutely discourge our members from tweaking, experimenting, fiddling and and otherwise fooling around with their systems. If you even think about it we will be sending the Klipsch Police around to knock on your door.

[Deang]

Did someone say "crossovers"? Well, the real "specialist" around here is Al Klappenburger. There are a couple of others as well who actually design filters (which I don't). As far as electronic "outboard" setups, Mark Deneen, and a few others can provide much more information in that area than I can. Now, with that out of the way, I can tell you that a great network with state of the art components can not overcome poor room acoustics or poor setup -- so make sure you address this area before dumping anymore money into your system.

Your Klipschorns are running either the AK-2 or AK-3 networks, and you should check the label on one of the crossover boards. If you are running AK-3s -- then you already have a very nice network. If you are running the AK-2s, then a set of AK-3s with better parts will definitely net substantial improvement. The main problem with electronic networks is that you are now forced to run everything through solid state devices -- which kind of defeats the purpose of running tube gear for it's tonal and imaging characteristics.

Can you provide us a picture of your setup -- or describe the room and what not?

[RAPTORMAN]

I have the AK-3 crossover. I will provide some photos of the setup/listening room ASAP.

[Deang]

O.K., your set. If you opt to not do the electronic crossover option and decide to upgrade your AK-3s -- I can supply you with a parts list and schematic -- it's worth it to do it.

[j-malotky]

I remember Dale Walker playing with outboard crossovers a few years ago. I believe he finally gave up.

There are also a few guys here using outboard components to time correct the Khorn too.

I have no idea what your friend would hear that he would say the Khorn is not "TIGHT"????

IMO, outboard active crossovers is a waste, and time correction is not worth the hassle.

If I were you, I would contact Dale and get his complete story.

JM

[Deang]

In PK's biography there was a whole page giving the reasons why he didn't like them. I think it would take a very serious piece of gear that could manipulate and tweak the signal the way a good passive filter can -- and a very expensive piece to maintain good sound quality while it's doing its thing. I would consider doing it with a tubed unit with a lot of flexibilty -- but now we are talking BIG bucks.

[RAPTORMAN]

O.K., your set. If you opt to not do the electronic crossover option and decide to upgrade your AK-3s -- I can supply you with a parts list and schematic -- it's worth it to do it.

*************************************************************************

Dean

What exactly is this upgrade? Can anobody do it? Having everything the same, would I hear a significant difference with this upgrade? I am not good when it comes to electronics and soldering and all that stuff.

[edwinr]

Dean, my Klipschorns have got the AK-2 crossovers. At least that's what the sticker says affixed to the board the crossover is mounted on. I also looked at stickers on the rear of the loudspeaker, they all say "copyright 1980". So I can take this as confirming the build date as that year. So should I consider a crossover upgrade?

[dubai2000]

Well, you can add another person trying to 'activate' Khorns. I found a (simple) dbx crossover and shall be getting the cables ready to start experimenting quite soon. So stay tuned .

Wolfram

[steamer]

Raptorman,

I have a link that might interest you.It explains the pro's and cons of going active.I am planning to do a serious mod to my LaScala's including an active crossover from Marchand Electronics.You can look up the info on the web.Go to google and do a search for Bi-Amping.You will find an article from a guy named Rod Elliot(Benifits of Bi-Amping,not quite magic but close).I have done some research in this area on the web including lots of reviews on Marchand stuff.In addition Al K. is telling me in a true bi-amp setup it is best to go active.I was on the phone with him ready to place an order for one of his Extreme Slope networks.When I told him of my plans for bi-amping he indicated that his passive networks would not be the best way to go.I think if a guy stays away from time delay settings and so forth(just more ways to mess it up)and sticks with the basic functions of a crossover ie.divide the signals and send them to thier prospective drivers he will be ok.If you read the article I spoke of you might just go active.

Greg

[steamer]

Forgot to add call Phil Marchand of Marchand Electronics.His gear was recommended by Al K.,also Phil will answer the phone himself.Seems like a good guy.He will be able to answer some questions.His equipment gets great reviews.

Greg

[Frzninvt]

EdwinR, No the copyright date on the AK-2 crossover is not an accurate means for determining the year of manufacture of your Khorns. That information should come off the label on the bass bin (primarily the S/N). If the label is gone, the S/N's are stamped into one of the wood edges on the back of the speaker. Post them here and we can get you the date of manufacture.

It is easy to upgrade the AK-2 to AK-3 functionality. It requires that three parts be changed out. 1) the two 70uf caps in the bass bin need to be removed and replaced with two 50uf's or a singe 100uf cap. I used a Solen metallized polypropylene cap for this. Then you need to replace the 4mh coil in the midrange circuit to a 5mh coil, lastly you need to replace the T5A autoformer to the T4A autoformer to bring the midrange level up by 2db. I think my total costs in parts to do this was around $180 if I remember correctly but they are now running at the AK-3 functionality.

[TBrennan]

Using active crossovers can improve sound by lowering distortion and increasing dynamics. However use of these devices is best left to experimenters and DIY hornys and care must be taken that the drivers and systems used are suitable for use with active crossovers. I've been using actives since 1977, mainly when using Altec, EV and JBL gear. IMOE&O "real" Klipsch speakers are best used with their original crossovers.

Very versatile, sophisticated active crossovers, including units that work digitally, are now available at cheap prices.

[sunnysal]

if the reason you are considering active outboard crossovers is because the guy mentioned the bass being "not tight" I think you are barking up the wrong tree. moving to electronic crossovers is a big step and IMHO should only be taken after you are sure you have covered all the other aspects of the system.

upgrade the caps and coils on your existing crossover first, the AK-3 is a great crossover and is well designed for a stock klipschorn, but better parts quality can result in better high fidelity family values, IMHO.

if that leaves you wondering still about the bass then I would look to the electronic components and the cables.

next I would consider the addition of a subwoofer (like velodynes new DD-15 or 18) to strengthen your speakers bass response.

To give you some insight into one person´s view of outboard crossovers, I am considering electronic crossovers for the following reasons;

1) I wish to correct the time/phase problems that exist between the three drivers. this is a subject that has been argued ad infinitum but I fall in the camp that would prefer time and phase aligned drivers if possible. so I will use the delay function of the crossovers.

2) I wish to increase the slope of the crossover filters to limit the range each driver (and amplifier) covers specifically to its best performance frequency range AND to limit the frequency overlap of the drivers. so I will use linkiwitz-riley 48db/octave slopes (or more as are offered on some units).

3) I wish to triamp my klipschorn, each amplifier will cover a limited frequency range and can be chosen to optimize performance into that frequency range and driver load. I will, for example, be using my 2A3 PP amplifier for the midrange while using a more powerful amplfier (I have not decided on SS or tube yet) for the bass cabinet, etc.

4) I plan to swap out the mid horn and driver and the tweeter horn and driver which will require a whole new crossover, I decided why not get all the other potential benefits in one fell swoop. (altec mid and jbl tweeter as described by john warren and q-man)

One last point, companies like TacT and Clarity (and to a limited extent Rivas and Velodyne) have been developing products that use impulse response/RTA testing to define filters that provide highly accurate time, level, frequency and phase adjusment to maximize a speaker´s performance in a given acoustic space/environment. these have been highly recieved by reviewers and users alike. Bass response is often mentioned as the most noticable improvement.

Clarity has developed a box (the DEQX) that combines a electronic crossover AND the impulse/RTA analysis functionality into one unit. that is what I am currently saving my pennies for.

best of luck on your tweaking,

tony

[Deang]

I don't understand why Al would say an electronic crossover setup would be preferrable to using his ESLs or ALKs, as both are biwirable/biampable. The only issue with passive networks is matching the output levels, which can be easily accomplished by using a pro amp with gain controls for the woofers.

Man, all the wonderful tube gear being run through sssssssolid ggggrate devices. You guys are nuts.

Anyone interested in taking a more affordable and practical approach to network upgrading is free to PM or email me.