unimorpheus Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 To all crossover gurus: I have read several forum post about users modifying their RF-5/7 crossovers. If the refs sound as good as everyone says then what is gained by the crossover mod? Also, if the mod does provide a measurable improvement then why hasn't Klipsch implemented the design change? As long as we are talking crossovers, can anyone tell me why a two way speaker system uses a three way crossover? Maybe a reference to a good article on crossover design would help me with this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_shadow Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Two-way speakers don't necessarily have three-way crossovers. The only ones I can think of are smaller speakers like bookshelfs or satelites that can't reproduce low tones, so there filtered out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 "...can anyone tell me why a two way speaker system uses a three way crossover?" Well, it wouldn't. What would be the point in using a network designed for three drivers in a speaker using two drivers? As far as modding and/or upgrading the components of a network goes -- you can expect to hear an increase in performance in every area that matters. Great parts make good speakers better. I've done dozens of upgrades for folks here, and have yet to receive a response from someone after experiencing it -- telling me that I overstated the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 ---------------- On 9/30/2004 1:40:43 AM unimorpheus wrote: To all crossover gurus: I have read several forum post about users modifying their RF-5/7 crossovers. If the refs sound as good as everyone says then what is gained by the crossover mod? Also, if the mod does provide a measurable improvement then why hasn't Klipsch implemented the design change? As long as we are talking crossovers, can anyone tell me why a two way speaker system uses a three way crossover? Maybe a reference to a good article on crossover design would help me with this point. ---------------- If klipsch were to implement better crossovers, the speakers would then become more expensive which would then put the speaker out of it's target range. Is there an audible difference? I've never heard any of the speakers let alone modded crossovers, but I don't doubt that there is. I would venture to say that the change is a bit more subtle such that only a trained ear would be able to notice a sufficient improvement. An untrained ear will likely hear a difference, but not know which version is more "correct" (if there is such a thing in the audio world). In some cases, like my dad, there are people that won't even hear the slightest difference at all (he can't hear the difference between bose and kipsch, lol). There are 2 way speakers that use a 3 way crossover, though the terms 2 way and 3 way become very loose terms. In a center speaker application, it is common to have the woofers flanking the tweeter in the middle. One problem that this causes is that the midrange tends to become muddy sounding, especially off axis from the speaker (sitting off to the side/not in front of the speaker). To minimize this, the crossover will be built to only engage one woofer in the upper midrange and then the second woofer gets engaged to help with the lower notes. The reason it is still a two way is because both woofers are working together in the lower frequency range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 "I would venture to say that the change is a bit more subtle such that only a trained ear would be able to notice a sufficient improvement." The "Trained" ear hears an overall smoother sound, with increased clarity and superior retreival of low level information. There is a near absence of grain at low listening levels, and a substantial reduction in harshness and shrillness at the higher SPLs. Imaging improves as well, and all of this leads to longer and more enjoyable listening sessions. The "untrained" ear hears a better sounding speaker. BTW, it's not subtle, and you don't have to strain to hear the improvement. We're not talking speaker cables here. As far as I'm concerned, the improvements brought to the table are as substantial as upgrading a piece of gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 You know what they say, it's not bragging if you are telling the truth. Seriously though, as one of Dean's pleased customers (he reworked my RF-7s and my RC-7), there is nothing subtle about the improvements. I agree that there was a dramatic reduction in harshness and shrillness at the higher SPLs and improved lower volume response. However, the improved imaging was the most surprising benefit. I actually had not expected that improvement (hoping just to get a smoother high end), and I was pleasantly surprised. I would also rate the improvement in a similar vein as upgrading to better speakers, going from receivers to separates, or substantially treating a bare room. Again, Dean, thanks. Why doesn't Klipsch incorporate it? Who knows, but a likely culprit is cost. However, just think of the upside. I originally purchased my RF-7s for only about $1200 for the pair. For a minimum additional expediture (Dean's mod), I ended up with incredible speakers. Isn't this a great country?? Carl. P.S. BTW, Dean, my latest tube CD + Peach + SS amp + RF-7 combo now brings endless enjoyment. Mark should really be proud. What an incredible linestage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich0372 Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 I think Klipsch should have Dean do all the crossover mods for them as an upgradable option Dean did my klf 30s and the difference is very noticable. Deans the man Hopfully I will get my klf c7 center crossover back from Dean today. I have to admit I didn't think the upgrade would make that much of difference either but, I sent him the crossovers anyway and WOW was I wrong so stop thinking so much and just send Dean the croosovers you won't be disappionted Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 I tried one of Dean's Jensen PIO "AA" networks in my center channel La Scala since I thought it was one of the most important speakers to update. I can tell you that I did not have to sit there and guess if I was noticing any improvement because it was immediately noticeable. Replacing the 26 year crossover in it just made sense, and now it is better than it probably ever was. I was not skeptical I knew it would make a difference I just did not know to what degree. From the slightest cymbal shimmer, to snap of the snare drum attacks, it is all better. For HT use, man o' man, talk about detail - scary! I then got a pair of his Type B's for my '62 Cornwalls, talk about smoothness across the board, tighter bass, very nice. I just updated the internal wiring as well. 10ga for the inputs and woofer, 14ga to the midrange and tweeter just to complement Dean's crossover work. Saving up my bucks right now for my rear '77 Khorns and trying to decide if I should stick with the Jensen PIO's or have him work me some up with the Auricaps to match the tonality of the '88's updated AK-3 networks. Decisions, decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Hot-rod crossovers have less insertion-loss associated with them due to the nature of the higher quality components and wiring used. This is certainly noticable. They also display a more even reactive load to the amp, promoting less frequency-based distortions. Overall, the difference in sonics is easily heard. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 If Klipsch started spending big dollars on exotic x-overs, we wouldn't be able to afford to buy the speakers. It's all about selling a cost effective product with the best sound possible for the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 I'm not quite sure what you're taking about with two way speakers having three way crossovers. It may be that you're looking at some Klipsch speakers with two woofers and a horn treble. Here, one woofer is turned on in the midrange and both are turned on in the bass. This called a tapered array. I myself do not agree with the hot rodding theory. The engineers at Klipsch design them and it is unlikely, IMHO, that they cheaped out. At least to the extent that there is very big improvement to be made with caps or inductor components of less resistance. I.e., better Q. The latter is what is usually going on with purported upgrades. There is a theoretical issue in the design of crossover filters. Classic design assumes there is no resistance in the caps or inductors, and that all the resistance to be considered is in the driver voice coil. So, in classic mathmatical design, all resistance in the crossover components lead to error. Even in classic designs, the resistance in the crossover components are probably too small to have much influence in the actual results. The major contributor is always the voice coil resistance. And everyone is stuck with that. Nonetheless, with modern circuit simulators and emperical testing (which Klipsch does use) there is no reason to think they overlooked that results could be improved with higher Q components. Save if they are really bad. I'm not quite saying that higher order crossover networks can't lead to better results. I note that the Chorus II crossover is more sophisticated than the others in the family, by one element. Also, the new K-Horn uses a much more sophisitcated crossover topology than previous models. This must have been due to very careful acoustic testing and simulation and to adjust frequency response issues. Let me add that I think Al. K.'s design has much merit. Still, I can't see that higher Q crossover components will lead to significantly better results, particularly when used blindly. I'm not about to tear apart my Forte and Quartets. There. I've insulted everyone. Smile. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 ---------------- On 10/1/2004 10:12:44 PM William F. Gil McDermott wrote: I myself do not agree with the hot rodding theory. The engineers at Klipsch design them and it is unlikely, IMHO, that they cheaped out. At least to the extent that there is very big improvement to be made with caps or inductor components of less resistance. I.e., better Q. The latter is what is usually going on with purported upgrades. **I would think that some improvements would be had, but not enough to lose sleep and cash over. IMO. I'm not quite saying that higher order crossover networks can't lead to better results. I note that the Chorus II crossover is more sophisticated than the others in the family, by one element. **Maybe more sophisticated, but the part quality is just average. But good enough to do the job, which is all that matters(to most). Also, the new K-Horn uses a much more sophisitcated crossover topology than previous models. This must have been due to very careful acoustic testing and simulation and to adjust frequency response issues. **It's interesting how the new network has quite a few more elements than the older Khorn networks. Let me add that I think Al. K.'s design has much merit. **Yup. I doubt I would have made my DIY Chorus II networks if it were not from ripping off ideas from AL. I just used the same values from the stock Chorus II schematic and used better parts. The "tune for maximum smoke approach". There was improvements IMO, but we are talking "Proud Papa syndrome". Still, I can't see that higher Q crossover components will lead to significantly better results, particularly when used blindly. I'm not about to tear apart my Forte and Quartets. **I don't blame you. It's a preference/hobby thing, something to do to one's speakers. And if you follow through with a original schematic and replace with higher Q parts, a guy would think there should be improvement, I dunno... I leave my Cornwalls networks stock, I ain't a x-over tech... I have my home-brew two-way speakers to learn about crossover networks.(and need to follow-through with...) There. I've insulted everyone. Smile. **Hopefully Dean. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unimorpheus Posted October 1, 2004 Author Share Posted October 1, 2004 I could not have said it better. From my experience the price of raw electronic components is not that great. When looking at the components used to build the crossover network, I don't thing that is going to be a significant portion of the total speaker cost. I also would not think there would be any additional development/testing cost as this work was done to develop the existing network. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Well Gil, I've been waiting a long time to see you stumble. I disagree with almost every point, and simply do not believe the various testing methods commonly employed, explain all of the experienced and reported sonic changes or improvements. Things that measure the same, or near the same -- often produce "sound" that is considerably different. I've done dozens of these "upgrades", and not ONE person has said that I overstated the improvements they would hear. Many of my customers are repeat customers, who after experiencing the upgrade on one set of speakers -- systematically move through the rest of what they own. I have over 10Mb of email containing positive feedback, and no one has yet asked me to "put it back the way it was". You are a very intelligent person, and you should at least allow for the possibility that you might be wrong. Don't cheat yourself out of experiencing something wonderful. If you can tie your shoes, then you can get a network out of a speaker -- there's absolutely nothing to it. If you can get them to my doorstep, I'll do them at no cost to you. I'll pay for parts, waive my labor fee, and pay all shipping charges. If you don't agree that you hear a substantial improvement, I'll put them back exactly the way they were -- at no cost to you. I'm not insulted in the least. I'm confident in my position, and at this point -- am impervious to criticism from those who have not experienced it, or attempt the upgrades with parts not much better than the ones they are replacing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Wow, Dean! Them's fightin' words! Well, Gil, the gauntlet has been thrown down........................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 I've made this "Skeptic Special Offer" three times now, with no takers. What do I have to do -- include a free T-shirt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unimorpheus Posted October 2, 2004 Author Share Posted October 2, 2004 I do realize I am jumping in the middle of a long-standing conversation but I am just trying to understand the nature of the changes that are made to the network. I have pulled the network from one of my RF-5s and the components used are of a high quality. They are by no means lab or mil spec but are nonetheless good parts. When you perform your mod work are you just upgrading components or are other mods being performed? Also has anyone performed any empirical testing to evaluate the speakers improved performance? I do not doubt the results I am just trying to understand and account for the difference in performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 "I have pulled the network from one of my RF-5s and the components used are of a high quality." How did you conclude they are of "high quality"? "They are by no means lab or mil spec but are nonetheless good parts." So now we are from "high quality" to "good quality". "When you perform your mod work are you just upgrading components or are other mods being performed?" The former. Only the RF-7 gets "modded". A resistor value is slightly changed to bring the horn's resonant peak down a little. Also has anyone performed any empirical testing to evaluate the speakers improved performance? Everyone else except me -- I just listen. http://www.capacitors.com/picking_capacitors/pickcap.htm#more http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-ec.php3#CAPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Okay Dean, I think I will take you up on the offer. Though I would like to pay. This project will have to be later in the year because work is very hectic. I have four Quartets. I'd like to first make what measurements I can with the present set up and compare the two pair side by side. Then we can mod a pair. And then check results. It would be fun to have people over for some comparisons. Best, Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Sounds wonderful. You are in Chicago, and that's really not that far from me. If the timing is right, I might be able to come down with Debbie for a long weekend. We could do a hotel, see some sights, and play with speakers too -- which is always fun. Lord knows my learning process is far from over, and these opportunities are important to me. If you want to pay for the parts that's O.K., and I appreciate that. Thanks Gil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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