Born2RockU Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 HOw can you tell if you have a WORN OUT or BAD crossover ? (ak-3) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 You dont! See your other thread. The notion that crossovers " wear out " is erronous. While it is true that capacitors can be slightly effected by aging,remember that you are running a maximum of perhaps 20-30 volts ( at ear splitting,windows rattling 3 doors down volumes ) through capacitors designed to operate normally at voltages in excess of 200 volts. The sonic issues you are experiencing are related more to your downstream equipment and/or room acoustics than to your speakers and their internal components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I disagree with Lynn (?!), there is alot to be said about getting an upgraded or new crossover. But as for determining the exact point at which you need one is another question, as it is a very slow degredation of performance, usually things just go out of tolerance... If they never wore out, then why would anyone need to upgrade? If you put a current though it, it will eventually degrade, but who can say when? That's physics but its fairly unpredictable, that is, we cannot say this should last 10 years or 40 years, etc. Even wires themselves eventually corrode, oxidize and break-down, and so do solder joints, and more "active" components (caps, in particular) also have a lifespan of operational performance within specified tolerances that the crossover design relies upon. When crossover components alter their operational characteristics due to age or abuse such as being subjected to environmental extremes, like temperature and/or humidity extremes and such, they also have an effect on the frequency slope and response. It typically moves off of design specs or otherwise becomes "unstable" in that it changes its operational values or becomes intermittant with frequency and current changes as well as environmental changes such as temperature and humidity. My 2cents... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 "If they never wore out, then why would anyone need to upgrade? If you put a current though it, it will eventually degrade, but who can say when? That's physics but its fairly unpredictable, that is, we cannot say this should last 10 years or 40 years, etc" Xovers have a distinctive "sound" when used with a particular set of drivers and cabinets. The only real reason to upgrade is if the xover has actually developed a fault ( rare but possible ) or if someone has designed a xover that is a better fit than the originl design ( entirely possible ). That said, does anyone here doubt that PWK and the engineers who followed him, simply tossed whatever might "fill the bill" into the xovers used in their speakers ? This seems too much like the old copper vs silver vs unobtainium speaker wire debate to pursue further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I would beg to differ ! I think crossovers can and do become a hinderance to the sound with age. I have heard of a few people that thought there system was dead silent replaced there crossover and instantly had hiss and buzz they didn't hear before. After much tracing and diagnostics it was absolutely proved that the old Klipsch crossovers were the culprit but these were near 30 years old and may have sat unused for many years. They just wouldn't let the noise through. Now I would think the problem would be more from being old then being wore out. AK3 are not that old. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Interesting thread... Most of the time we wouldn't notice the crossover caps drifting off spec because it is so gradual over the years. On the AK-3's, they are probably o.k. due to their age. Bob Crites has graciously taken some of my crossovers to test actual condition, before replacing caps on an if needed basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 "That said, does anyone here doubt that PWK and the engineers who followed him, simply tossed whatever might "fill the bill" into the xovers used in their speakers?" Gee Lynn, I don't know -- The Man used motor runs specifically designed for 50/60Hz applications -- you know -- stuff like washing machines and refrigerators. A leading manufacturer of motor run capacitors says the following regarding the use of their product: "This capacitor series is designed specifically for motor run applications where the capacitors are used in conjunction with permanent split capacitor type motors. They may be used on either 50 or 60 Hertz systems but should not be used at higher frequencies or in applications where higher frequency harmonics are present." I think he used the best that was available at the time, but it's not freaking 1940 anymore. Find me ONE person who went from motor run capacitors to film types who will say they didn't hear an immediate improvement. Cleaner, smoother, and more open -- period. On the subject of "worn out capacitors" -- find me ONE person who replaced 20 year old or more motor runs with new motor runs -- and didn't hear an immediate improvement. The old cans show much higher ESRs than new ones, and it's not uncommon for those who measure to see tweeter output levels 3db to 10db lower than where they should be. I think the AK-3 is populated with polyester types, and going to a good polypropylene type will definitely net some major improvements in clarity and cleanliness. The "change" in sound is due to more than just the differences in losses between the parts too -- I'm not buying into that one anymore, and I don't give a hoot what the measurements show (or don't show). Removing some resistance out of the circuit certainly explains some of it, but doesn't explain where all of the grit and hash happen off to. This leaves us with the "voicing" argument, which is weak at best when one considers this is exactly what we are doing every time we make ANY change to our system (equipment change-outs). None of these mods or upgrades changes the speaker into some other "speaker". Whether Type As, Type AAs, AK-3s, AK-4s, ALKs -- with whatever parts -- we still hear a Klipschorn, LaScala, or Belle Klipsch. The cleaner the water -- the better the coffee tastes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Yeah what Dean said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Dean, See reply in Technical. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Audio Flynn pointed out the possible source of his shrill mids problems if he is using a DVD player to playback standard CD's. Ever DVD player I have ever heard makes them sound shrieky and nasty. I think he is looking in the wrong place. The AK-3 is a newer crossover and one of the better ones actually. If you want to smooth the mids further replace the 13uf cap in mid circuit with one of DeanG's 13uf Jensen PIO's and believe me it will make a big difference. They are not cheap, but cheaper than buying a separate CD player for your CD's. As for me I use an older analog CD player for my CD's and certainly not the DVD player - Yuk! It is hard to beat the smoothness of the Nakamichi OMS-7AII and the DBX DX5 when it comes to CD playback. If I want to do a DVD-A then I use my Denon DVM-4800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Audio Flynn pointed out the possible source of his shrill mids problems if he is using a DVD player to playback standard CD's. Ever DVD player I have ever heard makes them sound shrieky and nasty. Not to get into a regilion war or anything, but why would a DVD sound different? Send the bits over the digital link and have the receiver's DAC do the job. Why would the bits output be any different than those from a CD player? Wondering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 ---------------- On 10/28/2004 5:13:02 PM Born2RockU wrote: HOw can you tell if you have a WORN OUT or BAD crossover ? (ak-3) ---------------- I second what has been said about replacing decades-old motor run caps. However, what will change the most over time is our own ears. Mine were 8 dB down at 15 Khz 16 years ago. I shudder to think what they are now, thanks to allergy-induced bouts of otitis media. My theory about *most* of audio "tweaking" is that it is the conjunction of aging ears plus disposable income plus pseudo-science = incredible marketing opportunities. Some of my pals who have relegated their audiophile gear to "Dad's room" (den or study) did so because their wives still have good hearing above 8 KHz and find what is great for a middle-age guy sounds unbearably shrill to a woman of the same age. My recent purchase of CW IIs was motivated by an analysis of what it would cost me to rebuild large arrays I built 20 years ago AND purchase an entry-level analyzer/microphone rig for my PC. Let's see: PWK, his staff and all the test equipment one could want vs. me, a simple analyzer and half-century old ears? No contest, brudda! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 ---------------- On 10/28/2004 7:12:28 PM lynnm wrote: That said, does anyone here doubt that PWK and the engineers who followed him, simply tossed whatever might "fill the bill" into the xovers used in their speakers ? ---------------- I have many doubts about PWK's various technical decisions. That said, he was still a speaker-designing genius, and my doubts don't change the quality of his products. But he was perhaps a true marketing genius most of all - and that gives me food for thought... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 OK so say you have almost 20yo belles and you want to replace the horn /driver wire are there directions for safely taking apart the cabinets or is this better left to a pro ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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