chambers1517 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Several of my friends, and myself have been debating about speaker cables for years now. I have a premium set and was cleaning out some junk and found a very cheap roll of wal-mart wire. So I wired the cheap stuff to B switch on my amp and connected the other end to my speakers. I know some may think this dangerous to the amp but A&B are connected to the same output they just allow you to switch between pairs of speakers. When A is pushed electrons only flow through The (good) wire, And when B is pushed it only flows through the cheap wire, also when both are pushed it flows through both. Some may say this taints the results, but anyone who knows fundamental electronics or even electricity also knows when no load is present (a or B switched off) that wire carries no current or signal. My friends all agreed that this was a fair test, so with each sitting in the sweet spot one at a time the results were amazing. There was six of us The only one who believed there would be no difference is an electronics professor at a local college.Switching from A to B not one of us could tell witch was being used. Actually with the amp hid , we could not even tell when they were switched, when for example it went from A on to both on to A off etc. The only thing that tipped off a switch was the quiet during the switch when both were off. Not only could we not tell A from B, we couldnt tell A or B from A & B.To say we were surprised was an understatement. Everyone double checked my wires because something had to be wrong. These cable manufactures are making a killing and ripping us off.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Do you think this carrys over to interconnects? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
126mhz Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Great post. A couple of years ago my Brother sent me a link to a fellow who I believe was a design audio engineer at McIntosh for many years. He went to the trouble of starting a web site to let everyone know about the "Snake Oil" many of the audio vendors are selling us all in the way of speaker cables. One need not be an audio engineer to see that NO ONE can change the laws of Physics. These are "Fighting words" to so many people because many people have spent small fortunes on speaker cables! Bottom line, cable/speaker manufactures have perverted an industry and thus the listening pleasure of millions of people. Flame on folks, Bill Woodward Portland, OR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 As I said 30 yrs ago....I told you so.....The laws of physics on this side of the universe is the same as on the other side of the universe. Snake oil is rampent in the audio industry. And worse than the pharmicutical industry. And no one to check it in both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Great post. A couple of years ago my Brother sent me a link to a fellow who I believe was a design audio engineer at McIntosh for many years. He went to the trouble of starting a web site to let everyone know about the "Snake Oil" many of the audio vendors are selling us all in the way of speker cables. What would be Roger Russell. See http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Just a couple of comments Generally speaking, I will agree with only a few caveats lest the pendulum of opinion swing to the other extreme instead of stopping in the middle and one then think that interconnects have NO potential effect! There is no doubt that speaker cables can exert a small influence on the sound of an audio system. But interestingly, I would maintain that well designed interconnects sound nearly identical. But one note should be mentioned here! Please do NOT run your amp without a load attached!!!!!!!!! Of course this has nothing to do with interconnects! ;-) The only issue I would take is the notion that ANY cheap zip cord will perform as well as other wire of less resistance. While in many cases you will not notice a dramatic difference, you can reach a point of diminishing returns with poor quality zip cord of higher gauge and poorer material composition (and hence greater resistance). Resistance is the real factor here, while the complex impedance characteristics of capacitance and inductance Generally are not a significant issue in the audio pass band. One caveat: some loads (ESL for instance) are very sensitive to inductance characteristics in cables, etc., so there are notable exceptions! But depending on the length, a decent quality OFHC copper of 10-14 gauge wire (i.e. SoundKing through Parts Express) will generally cover all reasonable runs. And contact integrity should be addressed, either by ideally soldering the connections with a decent silver solder, or by treating the copper for corrosion with a product such as Caig's Cramolin/DeOx-It, etc., or utilizing the often 'overly' venerated gold connectors (with their slightly higher resistance and insertion loss - but still not sufficiently so that too much should be made of it!) used if periodic maintenance of the copper is just more than one can bear. But, exceptional situations aside, I think you have realized a pretty simple understanding! Capacitance and inductance can become issues in certain instances, but generally one will not encounter this circumstance with the small value relative to the complex impedance of the total load when addressing dynamic transducers. Beyond that, I think you reach the point of quickly diminishing returns rather quickly, beyond which I believe the benefits are more psychological then real. But, for all of you that feel so strongly that the exotic cable performs better - by all means! Its only money! (And by the way, does anyone remember the Audio Advisor catalogs of 10-15 years ago which seems to feature a new amazing advance in interconnect technology with each successive issue? Remember light insulated cables? And water insulated cables? And the claim that your stereo ALWAYS sounds better at night due to the reduction in cosmic radiation? (Where is the emoticon with the hand hitting the forehead when you need it!? - Personally, I think that was due more to what the listeners were imbibing at night then what the background radiation levels were!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 were both of the wires that you used solid copper? also were they the same gauge, because that would make more of a difference to me (as far as the test is concerned) than if they were both the same gauge and both 100% copper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 This is a good thread for those who just can't stand the thought of"cheap"wire.While I'm all for good wire(sufficient size and insulation)its beyond me how people really believe there are different sounds they hear. The moral of this story is after you have sufficient guage and insulation its all about status and looks and whats in someones head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 great idea! now why didn't I think of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers1517 Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Another test we tried. One of the guys happened to be wireing his house for home theater. He had a roll of 500 ft 14 guage wire and another half roll (250 FT). We pulled the wire from the center of each roll and connected these 2 rolls in place of the cheap wire. So one channel had 250 ft of wire and the other had 500 ft. We compared this to the expensive wire. The results were the same as before. I know you definately don't want a lot of resistance in your wireing but this was an extreme to see if we could create a difference, and to tell the truth it is not that easy.I think it is unreal to believe molecular alignment etc. makes a difference. Until some can demonstrat in a blind test the difference in ultra expensive wires I will never again fall for this hoax. This experiment was lots of fun and invaluable as an audiophile. Everyone that can needs to try. Unless you don't want to know the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Your 'test' is so flawed its funny! I agree you probably couldn't hear the difference between a good cable (say a Teflon twisted pair like Kimber) and 500 ft of cheap PVC in parallel all the time. The wire hooked to the undriven amplifier outputs is still hooked up to the speaker and constitutes a capacitor. You have proven: You don't know what you're doing. Your teacher doesn't know what he is doing. Your friends don't know what they're doing. And I will guess that you have less than the best associated equipment. I am tired of people that brag that they can't hear, they need a new hobby. I have heard the difference between a short length of twisted pair Teflon vs 12ga Monster with a very pedestrian amplifier (Adcom GFA535), its small, but real. Teflon wire may be had surplus for about what cheap zip cord goes for retail. Of course if you can't hear..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Ah, another wire post! Always a bit of fun! Djk's post may be harsh, but I agree with his assessment. If you can't hear the difference(s) in wire, get better gear. Speakers first, gear second. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers1517 Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Deny all you want. until you prove in a double blind test your insults mean nothing.This test is extremely flawed, that's the point. You sound like 2 of my friends. No blind test is fair to them. No criteria can be met that doesn't influence results, to them. The only fair way is to know what your listening to, then you can really tell a difference,to them. yeah I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I like testing. Just measured the capacitance of a 200 ft. roll of 16 awg zip cord. Measured 3.731 nF. Not much of a capacitor. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 the dead end wires a Capacitor ??? BWAAAHAHAHA ! whadda you sell "cables" ?? don't forget the "elevators" to get your "capacitive transmision line" .....off the floor that birch flooring ......just sucks up sound ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 5:29:57 PM BEC wrote: I like testing. Just measured the capacitance of a 200 ft. roll of 16 awg zip cord. Measured 3.731 nF. Not much of a capacitor. Bob ---------------- No, but it might make a nice coil! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- No, but it might make a nice coil! You are right. Measures 1.387 mH. It is wound on a metal reel. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 thats a pretty huge coil for that amount of inductance.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurencekarl Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Actually audio does sound better with the lights off. It has to do with sensory deprivation not your audio system though. Radiation does affect electronics too. If a high enough energy photon impacts an electron it can transfer enough momentum to affect its location or cause it to move to a higher energy level in an atom. Very important when designing electronics in space but cosmic radiation is not an issue for earth based systems due to atmospheric shielding. Speaker cable doesn't matter as long as it meets basic standards. Also shielding from earth based radiation/electromagnetic forces is important for some audio and video connections. All of this was handled by engineers a loooooong time ago and is not a subjective matter. Wires that color the sound of the music are called "equalizers." Science does not accept, nor should a reasonable person, unrepeatable anecdotes and untestable assertions as fact. Psychologists have developed tests based on the best practices of science and there is no reason that we cannot apply these here. A simple experiment as has just been conducted is a good start. I have no problem with jdk providing the best system that he can find with the best speaker wire etc. that he can find (provided that it meets engineering specs and doesn't function as an equalizer) and testing it against speaker wire that is made to the same standard. The testing procedure would of course be up to reputable physiologists and psychologists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 If I were to ask an established, well credentialed astronomer a question about space -- and did not understand the answer or explanation -- I would ask for clarification, so I could understand. I don't think I would respond with ridicule or challenge. Banging on DJK isn't too bright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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