fletcherkane Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Ok guys, I know that I am going to ruffle a few feathers here, but IMHO a CD Player is a CD Player is a CD Player. Build quality aside, 24 bit DAC is 24 bit DAC. I have auditioned several CD Players in the last year on my Klipsch gear, and I can honestly tell you that I cannot hear one iota of difference between any of them. I have auditioned everything from a Pioneer Elite to an entry level Walmart special, to my JVC DVD Player, to a Marantz pro-level rack mount unit, to my current player, my new Sony 300 disc changer. No difference in sound. NADA. ZIP! Understand too, that I consider myself to have a pretty discerning ear. I am a musician by trade, and I love to listen to recorded music on my Klipsch gear. So...other than the bells and whistles offered by some of the high dollar players, the nicer looking chassis, and of course the "nameplate" recognition, what justifies the high dollar amount some companies try to get for their "audiophile" CD Players? I know this thread may ruffle a few of you, but it really is an honest question I am asking. Talk to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 no... i have a sony SACD/DVD/CD changer, a philips CD burner, and a panasonic DVD burner.... they all sound different... the sony is by far the best sounding deck of the three.... it even plays discs better that i've recorded on the CD burner... a much smoother top end with more high end extension as well... this is with having all the decks running through their digital outputs into my pioneer elite 55txi receiver... i was always of the mindset that "digital is digital" and all the decks should sound the same.... that is until i had three different decks in my system at the same time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 I think when people start seeing $11,000.00 Speaker Cables and the real increase in some Audio - Vintage McIntosh for instance - reality sets in. There's a point of price vs performance. Some of the amounts spent and the small increases in Sound seem to be waking people up. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 I agree with Mark on this one. Congrats. Do not pass go. Leave your system as is. I am somewhat envious because had I stopped many steps ago, I could have spent my money on other things.... I ran receivers similar to yours for a long time, and never really heard much distinction between various CD players. What contributed to part of this is that my former speakers just were not that detailed to begin with. Then.... I started upgrading. First to solid state separates and then to a variety of tube and solid state combinations. And then the speaker and crossover upgrades. (Belles, RF-7s, etc.) Why? More detail, smoother sound, and increased soundstage and dynamics. The problem with the benefits previously listed is that increasingly sensitive and detailed equipment reveal differences in other other areas such as your source. Then, you do hear the differences between different quality DACs, and CD players. I can hear a difference between players. My inexpensive DVD players or my older Sony CDP player do not sound as detailed and smooth as my Denon in my current setup. And, my Denon is not in the same category for CDs as my Jolida tube CD player - much more detail, wider soundstage, and overall - smoother... at all volumes. A month ago, my Jolida went on an unexplained fritz for a couple of days. I switched over to the Denon as my primary, and immediately everything sounded overly bright, tinnier, etc. DACs sound different just as do some players that have tubed output stages. In some cases a dramatic difference. We recently had a thread where a forum member fought brightness/harshness with his speakers (RF-7s), and suggestions poured in. The RF-7s are extremely revealing speakers and sensitive upstream. He replaced his ten year old Denon CDP with a new Cambridge unit and heard immediate results. All of that being said - my advise is to stop. Enjoy the music and resist any temptation to upgrade. You realize benefits, but there are commensurate costs. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 I have to ask how you are connecting these players to your system. If you are using the digital out, you will not hear a difference. However, if using the analog outs, & still cannot hear a difference, then the above posts are right.... you are really lucky! Save your $$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Man I wish I could say a DAC is a DAC. If I compare a crappy PC soundcard, like one built into the motherboard where it does horrible stuff like resampling to 48khz with extremely bad resampling algorithms, and lots of distortion and hiss, then compare it to a high end card, that uses a highly rated DAC, where the noise floor is 120db or more and the freq response is actually flat, then it's a HUGE difference. It's like night and day. I honestly think that if you go into prosumer sound card forums and say that, you'll get ripped a new one because the difference to most people with decent speakers is really obvious, they'll probably say your hearing is shot =/ You can actually graph a bad cdplayer dac vs a good one, and you can see how the freq response line from the bad one go up and down a LOT, as much as 5db. Which is completely horrible for a source to do and the SNR (signal to noise ratio) is way high so once you crank it to 70dB your getting hiss. I just wish I I could say a DAC is a DAC, otherwise I wouldnt have to spend so much money on a good one.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 I'm the guy that replaced his 15 year old Denon CDP with a new Cambridge Audio CDP. I use the analog connections, not the digital output. My stereo has never sounded better. I firmly believe that in the order of component importance, a terrific source (CDP or turntable) should be your first objective, then amps, and lastly speakers. If your source and amps are good, even budget speakers will sound pretty good. If your source and amps are sub-par, then even the best speakers will sound sub-par. I honestly feel it starts at the source folks. That said, for those of you that don't buy this theory, I say "more power to you... to each his own". Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 JPM... I was watching your other thread & it reminder me that I also replaced a Denon DCD-1700 CD player after about 10 years because it lost its sound, actually becoming very flat sounding. I wonder if the older ones were not made to hold up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 ...if you are talking cheap Japanese consumer electronics, then I probably agree with your assertion. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 LOL... That actually makes sense for me.... I replaced it with an US made Adcom, which is still in my system today after 12 years, & it still outplays everything else I have tried! But really... I have a few other older items that still work very well. The Denon was the only thing I had go bad on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletcherkane Posted February 7, 2005 Author Share Posted February 7, 2005 ---------------- On 2/7/2005 12:42:41 PM cyclonecj wrote: I have to ask how you are connecting these players to your system. If you are using the digital out, you will not hear a difference. However, if using the analog outs, & still cannot hear a difference, then the above posts are right.... you are really lucky! Save your $$$ ---------------- I have been using the digital outs...assumed this was better. Should I try switching to the analog outs? What's the benefit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 ---------------- On 2/7/2005 1:27:56 PM fletcherkane wrote: ---------------- On 2/7/2005 12:42:41 PM cyclonecj wrote: I have to ask how you are connecting these players to your system. If you are using the digital out, you will not hear a difference. However, if using the analog outs, & still cannot hear a difference, then the above posts are right.... you are really lucky! Save your $$$ ---------------- I have been using the digital outs...assumed this was better. Should I try switching to the analog outs? What's the benefit? ---------------- I have an old Denon DCD 1400. I was thinking that if I run digital out to my Denon DCD 5800, its DAC's should make a huge difference. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 fletcherkane, all the "big boys", of which I'm not, tell me to run cables analog for best sound. This also includes a sub, if you have one. Remember the big old analog cell phones we all started out with (assuming you're old enuf)? They sounded terrific. Now our new tech. digital cell phones sound like crap, but do have better range. Same deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Fletcherkane, Your observation is precisely what Consumer Reports said in 1985. It was also my experience until a couple of years ago, when I started listening to Heritage speakers for the first time. The amplifiers and CD players, with which I had been perfectly happy, sounded harsh, edgy and overly bright. I thought what the heck, these Klipsch speakers are ear bleeders? or what? Anyway, I have been glad to find a reasonable, (at least compared to some) CD solution and I've been happy with it. The rule I've heard over and over on this forum... what sounds good? If it sounds good to your ears, then it's good. IMO, no one has the power to take away your joy over audio. We, ourselves, have the power to give the joy away ourselves, but that's our choice, not within anothers' power. Now, I'll apologize in advance, if some negative response to my closing remark hijacks your thread... but.... ...wire IS wire! there now! p.s. thanks for posting. good food for thought here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 ---------------- On 2/7/2005 1:27:56 PM fletcherkane wrote: I have been using the digital outs...assumed this was better. Should I try switching to the analog outs? What's the benefit? ---------------- If you are using the digital out, the the player is just a basic transport, & your receiver is doing all of the conversion from digital to analog. They will all sound the same this way. What you need to do is try both... digital & analog outs....this way you will find out what has the best sounding DAC, the player or the receiver. Also... Ignore the name of the DAC.... I have seen players with the best DAC chip & bad surrounding circuits sound worse than cheap DAC's & good circuits. My Onkyo receiver has the best top-name DAC, but it does not sound as good as the no-name in the Adcom player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 ---------------- On 2/7/2005 1:33:30 PM tigerwoodKhorns wrote: I have an old Denon DCD 1400. I was thinking that if I run digital out to my Denon DCD 5800, its DAC's should make a huge difference. Chris ---------------- Chris: Does the 5800 have a digital input? If so... Try it! Can't hurt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 ---------------- On 2/7/2005 1:27:56 PM fletcherkane wrote: ---------------- On 2/7/2005 12:42:41 PM cyclonecj wrote: I have to ask how you are connecting these players to your system. If you are using the digital out, you will not hear a difference. However, if using the analog outs, & still cannot hear a difference, then the above posts are right.... you are really lucky! Save your $$$ ---------------- I have been using the digital outs...assumed this was better. Should I try switching to the analog outs? What's the benefit? ---------------- Well you can feel confident your hearing has not let you down. Since you were using the digital outs to your receiver then you should of heard the exact same thing with all players. All the different players you tried were just being used as transports your receiver was doing all the work. I think if you try the analog outs you will quickly start to hear a difference in all these players. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 so the converse is also true - if he HEARD a difference with the digital outs (using the reciver's DAC).: then something is wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 My experience......Had a Sony 50 CD carousel at the same time as I was running a Sony 200 CD carousel. The smaller unit was decidedly better. Got Jolida CD. It sounded much better with vintage tubes than with stock tubes. Ran its digital signal to an MF Tri-Vista DAC and the combination was better still (yes I know the Jolida is now an expensive transport and those vintage tubes are completely bypassed). I don't have especially good hearing. How can it be that I can discern a very noticeable difference in this small array of CD products and others say "no"? Methinx that if you cannot hear any difference in the source then enough artifact must be getting introduced by the balance of the system to mask performance from any source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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