RF7s are too bright too often.

[TBrennan]

JPM said "I could trade for non-horn speakers and solve the brightness problem"

Well your RFs already are pretty much non-horn speakers, very little of the speaker's range and energy comes from a horn.

There are horn speakers out there that aren't bright you know.

And note that electronics are far more neutral than speakers. Changing electronics to make a speaker sound good, as has been suggested, seems like a very expensive and bothersome way to do EQ. As the speaker is the most imperfect part of a hi-fi and dominates the system sound more than any other part it's perhaps best to start with speakers you like in the first place rather than knocking yourself out trying to make something you don't like into something you do.

[mike stehr]

Maybe run that Rega gear 24 hours a day for a week.

Or just run the whole system for a week with the CDP on repeat, with the volume turned down or off.

[Deang]

The first thing you need to do is work with placement.

My entry into Klipsch was with the diminutive RB-5, Luxman 200wpc amplifer and a Boston PV1000 subwoofer. From there I went to a pair of RC-7's (horn twisted and stood up on their ends), and finally to the RF-7. None of these speakers were modified, and I listened to my RF-7's for a year more before doing anything to the networks. At no point did I think they were anything less than stellar. I did at times think they were a bit bright, and sometimes a bit annoying and obnoxious -- which always had more to do with the recording than the speakers.

I always had the habit of setting all of my speakers up well off the side walls, and pretty much facing straight forward. I once posted a picture of my set up, and Mobile Homeless suggested I spread the speakers out as far as I could get them without losing the middle (phantom center), and toeing them in. Another RF-7 owner (Leok) had been experimenting with corner placement, and after reading a few of his posts -- I began scooting mine back towards the corners. I suggest you do the same -- and I think you'll be very surprised at the level of improvement. When doing your toe in, either have the horns firing across, in front of you -- or behind your head. Do not set them up so you are straight on-axis with them.

I think your gear is fine.

Later, after you start settling in with the RF-7's and grow into the sound, you will get hit with the upgrade bug. At that point, I'll probably try and talk you into taking your RF-7's to the next level. But for now, work with placement and the room some. You should be able to get great sound from them just the way they are!

[edwinr]

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On 2/10/2005 11:16:57 PM jpm wrote:

The amp and cdp are British, so they're on the warm side already. I could trade for non-horn speakers and solve the brightness problem, but I really want to like these RF7s. Help

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I haven't read the rest of this thread, no time. But don't take for granted that all British amps are warm or neutral anymore. For example the Mission/Cyrus amps are particularly lean - virtually unlistenable to my ears. That Rega you have is voiced similarly to the Cyrus range. Lean and rather bright. This amp has been described by certain reviewers as, fast. I take that as meaning little or no bass. Do yourself a favour and try other amps, not necessarily British, but the Creek range comes to mind.

[maxg]

Well done Ed - I was going to say that. Remember much British amplification and source is designed to work with laid back English speakers and is there fore the very opposite of laid back on something like a Klipsch.

Having said that I have never heard the items in question - so it may not be the case here - there are certainly exceptions to the rule - just ask Dean - he was delirious with his Quad amps.

In the current situation I would say placement is the most important thing to try - and certainly the cheapest. A friend of mine who has the KLF30 ran his actually toed out rather than in to deflect the horn sound a while. Surprisingly the centre image held up very well in this arrangement and it certainly softened the effect at this listening distance.

The only problem with the setup - and the reason he eventually abandoned it - was that his listening room was actually very long and not very wide and there were some rather strange effects beyond the normal listening positioning as the reflections got the better of the music.

All I am trying to say (in my long winded way) is that there are almost no rules here - try anything that springs to mind and keep the setup that works for you. Got to be better than draping a T-towel over the tweeters!

[GeorgeV]

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this or not. But, when I first hooked up my RF-7's the bass seemed muffled. I looked into the port holes at the back of the speakers and I noticed that the acoustic foam at the bottom of the speaker had come loose and was blocking the port holes. I pushed it back along the bottom and to the front side of the speakers and the difference in bass was huge.

[arthurs]

I would echo what Dean and others have said. Work the room placement and reflection points thoroughly before making any significant decisions about gear. The most overlooked part of this hobby is room treatment and placement.

[jpm]

Many of my CDs, especially jazz and some blues sound great. Especially trios with piano, bass and drums. Singers both male and female sound very nice. These speakers are transparent to my ears... they sound like music, not music delivering devices. I will work on placement today and also call my stereo dealer and talk about possibly trying a different amp. Also, my preamp has NO tone controls at all. No way to adjust bass or treble. Is that a problem or a liability?

[leok]

To get my RF-7s to sound right I had to:

Use amplification with low distortion at low power: I use no feedback triode SET or PP or a Tripath PWM. Tube amps use 4 Ohm outputs, not 8 Ohm.

Have a reasonable power line filter.

Have a good quality CD/SACD player.

Slightly modify the RF-7 crossover circuit to smooth what I consider a peak in the horn frequency response. Dean knows all about this and the caps in the next paragraph.

Change RF-7 crossover horn series caps to higher quality devices. I am using Jensen PIO. Whatever cap you use I recommend Voltage conditioning the caps before insertion (you might try conditioning the ones that are there).

I believe I should also upgrade the caps in the horn response shaping circuits, but haven't yet.

I consider my RF-7 system to be a kind or hi-resolution system. It is crystal clear and not harsh at all using CD or SACD. I generally prefer it to the Chorus-II based system (no matter what source and amp electronics are used). The system uses a Philips 963SA CD/SACD player, passive volume control, and 2A3 SET amplifiers. The entire system has power filtered from the line and between components. If I want big and loud I offload bass to a subwoofer using the subwoofer's active crossover. Generally I keep the subwoofer completely out of the system (which is easy because the subwoofer has a bypass switch).

Leo

[Dale A B]

This reminds me of my Forte's sound when the volume is low. The sound thins out, lacking bass, unless I add add'l bass via the tone control. At low volumes, some of the music sounds like it's coming out of a pair of small bookshelf speakers.

However, when I add volume, I can turn off all of the tone controls and it sounds just fabulous. It's too bad I can't run them louder when I'd like to, cause it's the bomb.

Forte's in a 11 x 18 slightly bright room, powdered by Hafler SS.

NP - Elvis Costello - This Years Model

[BillH2121]

I run my 7s with a Mac 2125 and C-26. CDs always seem brighter than LPs on my system so I adjust the treble tone controls on the C-26 down one notch (flat or one click below flat when listening to CDs. I've never had a preamp without tone controls so can't comment on the virtues of not having any. Perhaps a preamp with tone control might be a somewhat inexpensive way to handle your problem without giving up those beautiful RF-7s.

[DrWho]

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On 2/10/2005 11:42:00 PM jpm wrote:

Sometimes I just want to sit down and listen to smooth, mellow music that isn't so intense (not talking volume). Actually, putting a thin towel over the horn for "those" times didn't sound too bad.

My feeling is that the RF7s sound extraordinary at higher volumes. But at low volumes they sound thin and bright. Oh well, I'm not trying to argue the point, and I know they're good speakers. I'll give them some more time to endear themselves to me.

cigeraci - I bought the Rega gear after reading as much as possible on them and also on the recommendation of some folks that understood my price point, listening needs, and what I was trying to accomplish. I must admit, they're in a totally different league than my old Denon PMA2000.

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I think what you're experiencing is the effect of the loudness curves shown by the flether-munson charts. Your RF-7's are very linear in their operating range. This means that at around 90dB that they will sound very good. However, at lower volumes our ears need the bass to be louder for our ears to percieve it as flat. I think at 70dB, our ears percieve bass notes to be 20dB quieter than they actually are, which then requires a 20dB boost in the bass to sound balanced. Speaker manufacturers are very aware of this and will EQ their speakers to sound the best at the volumes at which they think their target audience will be listening. All that to say, quiet music should sound a bit on the bright side.

But this brings us to your situation where you want the quieter music to not sound bright. No matter what approach you take, the end solution is going to require some form of EQ that results in an increase of bass. Your preamp doesn't have any tone controls which means you won't be able to run some tests without going through some extra hassle. But before we jump to the EQ route, it would be interesting to know what kind of room modes you're dealing with. Is acoustic treatment even an option? At louder volumes, room modes start to reduce slightly in magnitude due to the reverberation in the room (you'll get more reflections that start to cancel the cancellation that's occuring). If you could perfrom some form of frequency response test of your system, then perhaps we can determine if it's a room related problem (which means no amount of electrical tweaking will fix the problem).

If at all possible, I would try to find some way that you could obtain for free a good quality device with some form of EQ and then see if that helps out your low volume issues. Perhaps someone from the forum might be willing? Do you have a good relationship with your dealer? Perhaps he will let you take home some equipment to try out at home.

[leok]

Although I have no question about the validity of changes in hearing at low levels, I found that once I improved the quality of audio going to the speakers, I had no interest in EQ at all. In fact, EQ circuits I've heard add enough distortion so that no EQ can correct the sound. Can you get a good SET amp (with 4 Ohm output) or a good Class-A ss amp to audition? Of course, you can also audition a good EQ system and that might do the job.

I generally listen at what would be considered very low levels. That's why I have no trouble using a 3.5W amplifier.

Leo

[cjgeraci]

I agree with Leo. Whether SET or PP, tubes improve the sonic quality of the RF-7s at low levels without getting into the whole EQ thing. I am also not a big fan of EQ.

Carl.

[Audio Flynn]

I didn't listen to the Rega gear with the RF7s but I heard it with non-horn speakers and they sounded great.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Certainly a setback.

I have not listened to a non horn speaker in about 5 years.

It clouds the decision making.

[jpm]

Problem Solved!

I returned the Cambridge Audio Azur 640CDP, upgraded to Rega's Planet CDP (there went another few hundred bucks... sheesh) and now all's well. The sound smoothed right out. Thanks all for the advice. I really do appreciate everyone's input.

[cjgeraci]

Did you get one of the original Rega Planet CDPs from the late 90s (black with fins, etc.) or is this a new unit?

Carl.

[jpm]

It's new, well actually was a store demo, but not very old (It's black with no fins - The amp and pre-amp have fins). When I tire of this stage I'll keep the 7's and upgrade to Naim Audio amp, pre, and cdp. But that's about 6 grand away. God, everything sounds wonderful now. Still has the signature Klipsch horn sound but without the piercing, fatiguing highs.

[cjgeraci]

Good call. The new CDPs are an improvement over the originals, which still are pretty good players in their own right. I still own an original Rega, and it sounds fine. But, like some, it had skipping/isolation problems. So it does duty in my office.

Congrats. Knew you would get there eventually.

Carl.

[D0N]

I have a special audio towel if you like to borrow it. I usually wear it around my waist but it is made of special sound wave catching cotton materials.

They look really nice draped over speakers.

Lemme know.