heresy2guy Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 "Where did Kathy say anything about an 8x10 room?" - DeanG She must have edited the post. The room demensions I quoted were the ones originally posted in the write-up. Guess it was just a typo in the original write-up that was corrected after my post brought it to light. The post says it was revised once. No big deal. I revise all the time, just like I'm doing here. I generally make a lot typos because I'm cruising along at 50wpm (that's fast for me) so the "edit" function comes in handy. Khorns in an 8 x 10 room just didn't sound right. -H2G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Carl, Do you find the RF-7s sound better with more powerful amps even at lower volumes? I can't turn mine up loud very often because I live in a condo. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 ---------------- On 3/16/2005 4:40:35 PM timbley wrote: Carl, Do you find the RF-7s sound better with more powerful amps even at lower volumes? I can't turn mine up loud very often because I live in a condo. Tim ---------------- Yes. I think Kathy alluded to this in her post, but the benefits are also noticeable at lower volumes. Of course, you get improved bass response at all volumes, but other things also improve at lower volumes, such as female voices and a slightly fuller sound. I recall one salesperson explaining to me that a 200 watt version of an amp from a given company was very, very similar to the company's 100 watt version - and at lower volumes the two amps would sound the same. That just was not my experience with RF-7s. I used to own a 120 watt Rotel (1075), and while the RF-7s sounded fine on it, the RF-7s sounded much better at low volumes driven by its bigger brother (a 200 watt Rotel). Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Drat, double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Carl - I don't doubt your assessment but, I'm running my 7s with a 100 watt Mac tube amp - when I turn the volume to the 2 o'clock - 3 o'clock position (100 watts), the sound quality is still excellent but it is damn loud! Loud enough that I can't imagine anyone listening at that level for long. What am I missing sound-wise by not having more watts at my disposal. I'm thinking the sound of my system is pretty good at low and moderate levels - would there be that much difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Carl - I guess you were responding to Tim while I was typing - I guess that answers my question, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 ---------------- On 3/16/2005 4:55:10 PM BillH2121 wrote: Carl - I don't doubt your assessment but, I'm running my 7s with a 100 watt Mac tube amp - when I turn the volume to the 2 o'clock - 3 o'clock position (100 watts), the sound quality is still excellent but it is damn loud! Loud enough that I can't imagine anyone listening at that level for long. What am I missing sound-wise by not having more watts at my disposal. I'm thinking the sound of my system is pretty good at low and moderate levels - would there be that much difference? ---------------- Remember, you are talking tube amp watts - different than solid state watts. From what I have read, the general rule of thumb is that you take your tube watts and multiple them by a factor of 2 (or more) to get the equivalent solid state power rating. That is really a gross generalization and of course, how the manufacturer rated/measured the amps and watts plays a part in what true watts you are talking about (and there are other variables - i.e. damping factor, etc.) But even with that generalization, your 100 watt tube amp is then probably more like a 200 watt (or more) solid state amp (overall power wise). Similarly, my Dynaco Mark IIIs run at 60-65 watts per channel tube-wise, and they run my RF-7s marvelously. But, my other tubes (30 or 35 watts per) - not so much. So..... you are already there. You just did not know it. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Kathy good review but I don't understand why people are always saying that Rf-7's don't sound good with Denon receivers. I have found the direct opposite. The Rotel RB-1090 sounds like a killer machine at 200 WPC. I may go separates on the next upgrade cycle and will definitely look into this unit--but I love the sound that my Klipsch Reference and Legends have with my Denon Receivers. Another comment I have seen on this forum was that female voices don't sound as good on RF-7's and you mentioned it again ("without the proper ampage"). I took my Faith Hill & Jewel DVD's to several stores and played them on Martin Logans and some Def. tech speakers after I read similar comments on another thread--there is no way that they sound better on those speakers than on my Reference set up. If it actually sounds bad to so many people on this forum I guess people really do hear sound quite differently. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in for folks that like the sound of their Denons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Maybe the 200wpc Rotel produced cleaner power around the 1 to 5 watt range then then 120wpc Rotel?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 ---------------- On 3/16/2005 5:51:56 PM heresy2guy wrote: Maybe the 200wpc Rotel produced cleaner power around the 1 to 5 watt range then then 120wpc Rotel?? ---------------- Maybe, although the THD for both units was the same. The 200wpc Rotel has a much higher damping factor (which would explain the bass), but I cannot explain the improved mids or highs just by looking at the specs. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 All of you aren't listening to the same RF-7's. As far as watts go -- watts is watts, and it doesn't matter what kind of amplifer a person is using. I think maybe the perceived increase in loudness of tube amps is due to the fact that most SS amps use loads of feedback to lower their distortion levels. By comparison, tube amps use much less feedback, and therefore sound much more open. I have no answer for the Rotel dilemma. For whatever reason, the 1080 is just that much better, and based on what I've read about it on other forums, it seems to be absolutely killer regardless of what it's pushing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Hmmmmm - interesting. I defer to your expertise, Dean. I stand corrected on the watts thing. Again, just parroting what I have read in other places without the requisite technical knowledge to back it up. I just know that in real world experience, I can get by with much less "watts," tube-wise as opposed to solid state. Dean is right on us listening to different RF-7s. As most already know, the RF-7s benefit greatly from his crossover mod. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 I've found THD to be a tricky number. Most manufactures will rate it at one frequency and at the amp's maximum output. 1,000 clean watts with minimum THD at an amp's max power mean little if the 1st one, or the lower ones for that matter, is/are "dirty" with a high THD. Since Klipsch speakers are so efficient, and some have the ability to be run with under 10 watts required to achieve 104db continous levels with 114db peaks or so, an amp's lower power "cleanliness" if you well, is crucial to "good" sound. I was on HK's website the other day for another post here on the forum and was surprised to see that they gave the THD as an average, from 250 millawatts to full-rated maximum power. You don't see specs listed like that any more. Too bad. It was very honest on HK's part. -H2G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 ---------------- On 3/16/2005 2:45:05 PM oscarsear wrote: Don't know which way you went to get to Seattle. If you're in eastern Washington you're welcome to listen to my system...I'm in western Idaho. Running a pair of 2004 Khorns in a 15 X 35 X 8 ft room. Got bass that'll part your hair, along with the rest the Khorns can deliver. I also own a full Reference system which is s/u in an A/V room. The RF-7s were designed as part of an entire system and require some work for proper 2 channel which I believe you have achieved in your s/u. Glad you're enjoying them...and...yes, I'm married and the wife won't mind...too much...I think. ---------------- Lemme guess....Coeur d'alene Idaho, or around that area. Nice gear....and nearby Spokane. Kathy must be from Oregon, 'cause we are more like 300 miles from Seattle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Kathy, Good review. I'm guessing a lot of the difference you heard had to do with the inferiority of the listening room compared to your own. 30 x 40 ft! That's more square feet than my whole pad - and with high ceilings! I'm very, very jealous! Show us a picture! My listening room is more the size of the one you heard the Klipschorns in. A friend of mine here in Eugene has Klipschorns in a rather small room. The are bright and edgy sounding in there. But I was absolutely captivated with their lively and present sound, and their ability to play at very loud levels without sounding distorted or strained. That's why I own Klipsch speakers now. I've had plenty of experience hearing my own hifi systems in different rooms over the years,and I'm continually amazed at the difference a good room can make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Kathy great review. You did a very good job of detailing what you heard, that is not always easy to do, especially when Dean beats up your subtle nuances. I agree, I don't think you got a very good demo of the Klipschorns. I do believe you probably heard a little more detail in the high frequency of the 7's due to the more modern driver, but you should have heard a completely enveloping very distinct imaging sound when the Klipschorn played and as stated before the bass should have parted your hair or curled you toes. I believe the La Scala bass although not as deep does offer a little more impact or slam factor but the Klipschorn bass should have been very accurate, effortless and unmistakably present. An 8-foot ceiling is not ideal but the 25 X 10 room should have allowed them to open up quite a bit. It is unfortunate they could not set them up on a better power source for you to hear. The RF 7s are an excellent nay-outstanding speaker but IMO the Klipschorns have them and pretty much anything else beat across the board. You hit the nail on the head when you illuminated the fact the Klipsch products do reveal inferior amplification. You should have heard a lot of similarities in the La Scalas compared to the Klipschorns but the Klipschorns should have sounded bigger and more enveloping. It is unfortunate the set up for the La Scalas was done so poorly as well. You have a 30 x 40 room pardon my green hue over the size of your listening room. Anyway thanks for a great review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Two 100 watt amps can drive RF-7s in very different manners. The 100 watt rating was probably at 8 ohms. The RF-7s dip to 2.8 ohms. Some 100 watt amps are better than others at putting out the additional current needed at 2.8 ohms. One amp may have one or two pairs of output transistors while the other has five pairs of output devices and a better power supply. The Rotel 1090 amp can hadle the low impedance of the RF-7s without strain. I use a Sunfire Signature Stereo amp that has a bit more power than Kathy's amp and got the exact same result. The Sunfire Cinema Grand II I have for the other five speakers has less power than the stereo amp. You can hear the difference in the mid range of the RF-7s on the two Sunfires. The added power makes the mid range more distinct. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyMason Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 Thanks everyone! It is hard to write about how something sounds, and a lot of you guys are much better than I with it! Thanks DeanG! You do a darn good job at it from what I've read here!! Maybe one day I will do as well as you...... maybe! Also thanks for posting the crossover picture, very nice! Now you really have me lusting for a pair of Klipschorn's! Love for that day to come! jacksonbart, thanks..... Yes, it is a big room I have but I just hope that the RF-7's will sound great when I move them into a smaller room!! I'm single now, so I have to give up my big house..... just can't afford it on my own and it's too much house for one person. Time to sell and move into something smaller, but such is life sometimes, huh guys! I purposely didn't mention the other two amps by name because I didn't want to upset anyone if they have those amps and get a little sensitive to my opinion on them. I have learned things like that on here by now. BillH2121, thanks for the reminder! I did remember to check the bass ports when I first setup the RF-7's from what I read and one was blocking the port so I fixed it. I did notice that after some heavy deep bass playing on a CD that has alot of bass throughout, that the bass port became a little blocked again so I think it can also move during deep bass output, so I'm going to have to figure out how to glue or make something to keep it in place. Klipsch should probably have it clipped down in place so it can't move during shipping or during playing music. Wow cjgeraci, sounds like you put a lot of work into making your Belles sound their very best! Sounds very nice, makes me want a pair to hear them at home! I would love to even have a Belles or LaScala! I know if I had one home, I just know that it will sound a lot better home than it did at the dealers! I would love to have a pair to atleast try at home and see! Wishful thinking I know. Thank you oscarsear, if I'm ever over that way..... I might take you up on that! tkdamerica, that's why I don't like to mention the name and probably shouldn't have. I've never owned anything Denon so I can't speak personally about them but the setup there was going through so much that even an amp that does sound good on the RF-7, may not by the time it's going through all that switching setup. It may be very well that the Denon goes well with it and sounds like it by what you are saying, so it's likely it was something else in the setup other than the Denon. I do agree with you that the RF-7's do female vocals very nice and accurate, as well as male vocals. timbley, I agree with you about the room being an important part. I've read that many times and that's why I will be nervous when moving the RF-7's to a smaller room when that time comes! Thank you J.4knee, for explaining how the Klipschorn's sound. Just what I thought that the setup was the problem. I would have loved to hear them as you describe but I'm still going to try to! I really want to hear them at their best! Sounds like it will be a real treat. I can't wait! Thanks every one!! Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 ---------------- On 3/17/2005 1:51:36 AM KathyMason wrote: BillH2121, thanks for the reminder! I did remember to check the bass ports when I first setup the RF-7's from what I read and one was blocking the port so I fixed it. I did notice that after some heavy deep bass playing on a CD that has alot of bass throughout, that the bass port became a little blocked again so I think it can also move during deep bass output, so I'm going to have to figure out how to glue or make something to keep it in place. Klipsch should probably have it clipped down in place so it can't move during shipping or during playing music. ---------------- Huh? What's getting in front of the port that you have to keep moving? The padding inside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Wow Kathy what a breath of fresh air your post was compared to some of our arguing here,,,lol.Im glad your set up sounds good and hope you get to hear some K-Horns soon.I bet some sales men look funny when you know more than they do, so dont let them bully you cause you know your stuff!!!!Lets Hear it for Kathy....Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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