sputnik Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I recommended the Dual 701 a while ago but check out this eBay sale for a Systemdek. I liked the one I tried out and it looked cool in the livingroom. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48649&item=5766823970&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW The seller said was a Linn by mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitece Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Last week I found my last turntable-- it was a Kenwood from a Kenwood rack system(rack systems with separate amps and tuners and cassette players were the 80's home theater). Now that turntable hasn't seen the light of day in 20 years but when I plugged it in it spun. I had replaced the cartridge witha Grado G+.I'm embarrassed to admit there was an lp left on the platter. What's really embarrassing is what that lp was--lips are sealed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 A Thorens 125 a good bet. The stock arms are just OK - the hot combination of the time was the 125 with a Shure SME 3009 arm and a Shure V-15 cartridge. The other Thorens tables from that era could have suspension problems. The problem with the Beogram tables I've seen is that you're married to B & O cartridges. I used to have a Systemdek. Good table - looked like a snare drum with an arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurdy_gurdyman Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I have an old Thorens TD-160 and a Denon DP-75. Both can be found used quite reasonably. Both have performed well for many years now and both sound very good. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperfectcircle25 Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Look for an old Rega Planar, its the best budget table around. Also if you are willing to spend some money an older Linn Sondek is about the best money will buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 ---------------- On 4/13/2005 5:49:57 PM CaptnBob wrote: A Thorens 125 a good bet. The stock arms are just OK - the hot combination of the time was the 125 with a Shure SME 3009 arm and a Shure V-15 cartridge. The other Thorens tables from that era could have suspension problems. The problem with the Beogram tables I've seen is that you're married to B & O cartridges. I used to have a Systemdek. Good table - looked like a snare drum with an arm. ---------------- I'll second that 125 with and SME. Very nostalgic yet still a great combination even for today given what they cost. I'll bet you can find that combination for $300 to $500. The Thorens TD160 is also good but the 125 seems to be be more solidly built in my opinion. Much better than the Garrards of that era sound wise. Although I just cleaned and serivced a Garrard a-1 and it's very entertaining to stack old records and watch them "drop" and play. Not very good for you records though. PS. I use the term "serviced" loosely. To me that means, getting it to work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 i just bought a refub AR turntable ... great quality product ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 I've had a Sony 2251 LA (less Arm) for years wirh no probluem. The Arm I chose is a Shure / SME 3009 II with Ortofon 40.. But the nice thing is the ability to use a differenet arm. Quiet, reliable. Worth what I paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurdy_gurdyman Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Interesting that this topic just happens to happening now. I just today stopped at the Salvation Army thrift store and found an old AR-XA for $5.00. It had a Shure type II cartridge with broken stylus (of course) and was missing the platter mat and dust cover. Of course I bought it. This table is simplicity to the extreme. I like everything except the arm which has a cheap plastic headshell and no anti-skating device. I may rig up a thread-and-weight anti-skate for it and see how it does. The platter is a bit lightweight but looks nice and runs dead quiet. Suspension seems fine and the whole unit looks well taken care of. Anyone know if an aftermarket drop in arm was available to upgrade the quality? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 No. Plus, any mods to fit a better arm are quite extensive. I've got instructions around here somewhere to convert to a Grace (707, I think) or the SME. I'll dig around. I deemed it not to be worth the trouble (for me). Also, I found anti-skating to be unnecessary. Simply increase your VTF .2g or so, and you should be fine if everything else is as it should be. My Scout doesn't have anti-skating either. The plastic headshell, while cheap, is light and does the job fine. Someone here used blu-tack or something on the arm in several places and reported improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 http://www.laaudiofile.com/issue27.pdf covers refurbing. http://www.laaudiofile.com/issue29.pdf covers the arm mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 A note on the mat- don't worry about hunting down an original foam one. I bought one of those Extremephono mats (basically shelf liner material) & it was much more focused, with tighter bass (at least for the AR). Even if you (over)pay $20 like I did, it's still worth it, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Oh, yeah! The $5.00 the AR XA. Those things are great. I never found the need for anti skate and I've run mine through the HiFi test record torture test tracks. It does just fine through the first two tracks, reasonable on the third. Love watching that undesized motor work itself up to speed! From what I remember reading, modding for a different arm was fairly expensive and difficult. I love my little XA just like it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 May I say that the Dual 701 is indeed a remarkable TT, run by a motor (direct drive) that could run a washing machine and without rumble! I may add that I will be selling it., but for non European forummembers it will not be interesting due to shipping. The 701 has the nice arm, not the Utra light which is not as good and not very compatible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurdy_gurdyman Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Ben, Thanks for the links! Looks like I've got some reading to do. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgewound Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 ---------------- On 4/13/2005 4:47:20 PM dragonfyr wrote: Without going into esoteric discussions of mechanics or the accurate storage of phase information in vinyl or of its reproduction or other obtuse 'stuff'... From the esoteric reviews (which I take with a grain of salt), a few of which I believe are posted on the MH website, to the independent reviews which go into great depth regarding the units design and manufacture in the Czech Projekt plant, etc, they are great performing TTs in all respects, providing the same or better response then turntables costing SUBSTANTIALLY more. And when the people who think they can hear substantial differences between the various ~$1250 Regas and the other esoterics, like the MH, I am not going to argue with them. One could argue that any TT in that realm SHOULD be superb! Personally, at that point I have already reached/exceeded the point of diminishing returns with the MH5, ESPECIALLY if you are going to be playing vintage pressings (with the exceptions of German Polydor, Japanese (incl MobFidelity), etc.) as you are already critically limited by the program source. At that point we enter in to the realm of debating akin to that of the inane (IMO) effects of a 1-meter esoteric AC cord reportedly functioning as a regulated current source! And just as that interconnect made from some rare material from the planet Krypton cannot supply more or better regulated/conditioned AC then is supplied to it to an amp, the turntable is going to faithfully reproduce every nuance of the program source, including vinyl pressing flaws, filler, etc. rather then introduce any new musical information. After all, once the fundamental mechanical issues are addressed, the TT/cartridge merely reproduces the source, it doesn't create additiopnal musicality. Anyone who doubts that is welcom to come listen. I have >3000 vinyl pressings ranging from original off the board bootlegs (quite a few of those) to the esoteric pressings to the regular maticulously cared for store pressings (many riddled with dimples and filler - even after they grew quite tired of substituting 5 copies for every title I bought and inspected!) If someone wants to debate the difference between >$1000 turntables, be my guest. I have personally listened to many of them. I suspect that with enough beer, margaritas, &/or other mood altering 'stuff' (funny how that advanced universal technical term comes in so handy!), I might be able to hear the differences. (I know that one time , after enough of the aforementioned 'stuff', I was able to hear the differnces in how the electrons all held hands and all went down wire, but that was quite a while ago when I had more brain cells then sense, but unfortunately I haven't been able to reproduce it.) So yes, I personally will stick MY neck out and say that the MH5 is equal to any TT under $1250. Plenty of golden ears say so too, for whatever little that is worth. And as far as I am concerned, I don't care about TTs priced higher then $1250 (except as elegant examples of engineering). But if you have the time, I can show you my $12,873 desk lamp that lights the keyboard upon which I still make lots of typos! And they told me it would aid my typing. And they must be right, as I can see my mistakes very clearly now! Although for some reason, my typing skills haven't improved! And I suspect your esoteric turnatables once that point of dimnishing returns is reached) are just as effective as my light. ---------------- Hi again, Thanks for the informative post! I'm glad you're happy with your Music Hall table, but I still don't understand what you mean by "eats up" Rega? I've looked at the Music Hall tables at Good Guys and the arms feel cheap and flimsy compared to the Rega arms I've seen. The Music Hall arms are made of stamped sheet metal and the Rega arms are cast and feel very solid and precise. Which is better? Why? I've also never seen any of the Music Hall arms for sale on eBay, but have seen lots of Rega arms and they bring good money. Doesn't that say something for the Rega, especially if you ever want to upgrade? Just trying to make the right choice. Could any Rega owners chime in? Thanks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Dave, I hope the info is not as daunting to you as I found it to be. Do post back if you jump off the AR mod cliff. ---------------- On 4/14/2005 10:48:42 PM Edgewound wrote: ---------------- On 4/13/2005 4:47:20 PM dragonfyr wrote: Without going into esoteric discussions of mechanics or the accurate storage of phase information in vinyl or of its reproduction or other obtuse 'stuff'... From the esoteric reviews (which I take with a grain of salt), a few of which I believe are posted on the MH website, to the independent reviews which go into great depth regarding the units design and manufacture in the Czech Projekt plant, etc, they are great performing TTs in all respects, providing the same or better response then turntables costing SUBSTANTIALLY more. And when the people who think they can hear substantial differences between the various ~$1250 Regas and the other esoterics, like the MH, I am not going to argue with them. One could argue that any TT in that realm SHOULD be superb! Personally, at that point I have already reached/exceeded the point of diminishing returns with the MH5, ESPECIALLY if you are going to be playing vintage pressings (with the exceptions of German Polydor, Japanese (incl MobFidelity), etc.) as you are already critically limited by the program source. At that point we enter in to the realm of debating akin to that of the inane (IMO) effects of a 1-meter esoteric AC cord reportedly functioning as a regulated current source! And just as that interconnect made from some rare material from the planet Krypton cannot supply more or better regulated/conditioned AC then is supplied to it to an amp, the turntable is going to faithfully reproduce every nuance of the program source, including vinyl pressing flaws, filler, etc. rather then introduce any new musical information. After all, once the fundamental mechanical issues are addressed, the TT/cartridge merely reproduces the source, it doesn't create additiopnal musicality. Anyone who doubts that is welcom to come listen. I have >3000 vinyl pressings ranging from original off the board bootlegs (quite a few of those) to the esoteric pressings to the regular maticulously cared for store pressings (many riddled with dimples and filler - even after they grew quite tired of substituting 5 copies for every title I bought and inspected!) If someone wants to debate the difference between >$1000 turntables, be my guest. I have personally listened to many of them. I suspect that with enough beer, margaritas, &/or other mood altering 'stuff' (funny how that advanced universal technical term comes in so handy!), I might be able to hear the differences. (I know that one time , after enough of the aforementioned 'stuff', I was able to hear the differnces in how the electrons all held hands and all went down wire, but that was quite a while ago when I had more brain cells then sense, but unfortunately I haven't been able to reproduce it.) So yes, I personally will stick MY neck out and say that the MH5 is equal to any TT under $1250. Plenty of golden ears say so too, for whatever little that is worth. And as far as I am concerned, I don't care about TTs priced higher then $1250 (except as elegant examples of engineering). But if you have the time, I can show you my $12,873 desk lamp that lights the keyboard upon which I still make lots of typos! And they told me it would aid my typing. And they must be right, as I can see my mistakes very clearly now! Although for some reason, my typing skills haven't improved! And I suspect your esoteric turnatables once that point of dimnishing returns is reached) are just as effective as my light. ---------------- Hi again, Thanks for the informative post! I'm glad you're happy with your Music Hall table, but I still don't understand what you mean by "eats up" Rega? I've looked at the Music Hall tables at Good Guys and the arms feel cheap and flimsy compared to the Rega arms I've seen. The Music Hall arms are made of stamped sheet metal and the Rega arms are cast and feel very solid and precise. Which is better? Why? I've also never seen any of the Music Hall arms for sale on eBay, but have seen lots of Rega arms and they bring good money. Doesn't that say something for the Rega, especially if you ever want to upgrade? Just trying to make the right choice. Could any Rega owners chime in? Thanks!!! ---------------- Informative? Well, I guess I didn't see much of that there. Funny, to be sure. The whole "good enough for me" point of view makes sense at some point, but I think shooting a little higher makes sense, too. To ridicule those who appreciate and seek the more subtle differences in reproduction just seems narrow to me. Certainly drawing the line at the MH5 appears to sell the medium a bit short, though I haven't heard the deck. My Scout is superb, but I really think that it just scratches the surface of really great music makers. Diminishing returns need to be considered practically, but returns are indeed returns, and it is up to the listener to decide when they have diminished sufficiently to stand pat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 You fear have missed half of what I was referring to, as you focus simply on the turntable. May I inquire as to your program source? Are the high grade vinyl pressings such as the German Polydor and the Japanese pressings including Mobile Fidelity, etc. that were restricted in the US plants? Or are the archived flimsy pressings typical of the US commercial market which by the 1980s where excessively high in filler and on which most can be found voids and dimples. Go look! Just as you enter into the realm of diminishing returns with cables, so you quickly reach the point with turntables, where the weakest link is your program source. Are you only going to be listening to the limited release boutique recordings? If not, once you exceed the level of performance provided by the MH7's and Planar3's, etc. you are reaching the point where the improvement is in reproducing the limitations in the pressings. About 10 years ago at an AES meeting we had Glenn Meadows from Masterfonics and Danny Purcell of Georgetown Masters give an in depth presentation in the mastering suites, where the critiqued the array of pressings available, and compared them with some of the sources that they had mastered. And the demonstrations reached the point of absurdity. Not only did they aptly demonstrate the readily apparent limitations in the pressings, but they went further and gave a pretty scary and downright funny demonstration of really screwed up transfer settings from master to vinyl with reversed polarity, channels and all sorts of problems I had never anticipated (and which most just think was intended!). I guess my question is, what are you listening to? And do you need a Porsche Carrera GTs (ok, well I do!) to go to the grocery store when you can't even legally get it out of first gear! And as far as what feels flimsy. Come on! I could make an arm out of cast iron or steel rod and one out of extremely thin walled aluminum or even titanium and the cast iron/steel arm would feel more substantial! But does it perform best? What are the resonance modes supported? How are they damped? How does it interact with the cartridge? You don't have to debate with me whether it is a quality turntable! Find me one legitimate review from any legitimate source that disagrees with the quality! Just one. And lets see. Why do you find lots of Rega arms available? Hmmm. Why would you find an arm available alone? Perhaps its because folks have pulled them replacing them with others????? Is that an endorsement of the arm? Hardly! And think about it, if you are selling it, would you post it as "this is the sh_tty arm I removed in lieu of the much better one I purchased for roughly the same cost as the entire turntable and stock arm? Are you surprised no one lists it this way? Are you trying to sell it?? And I would question the NEED to replace the Rega arm. In fact, there are some pretty radical modifications to it that would make it better then many of the arms it is commonly swapped for. And lets get something straight that seems to keep coming up! I NEVER said Rega was bad! If you read my first posts the primary turntables that I have had and liked (not counting a Dual 1215) have been Thorens 160, a Rega 2500, and a Music HallMMF-7. I try not to buy stuff I don't like. And the MH is an improvement over the Rega. Is it substantial? Is it sufficient to dump a functioning Rega and run out and buy the Music Hall. No! And I never suggested that! And anyone that did that sort of things is a bit nuts in my book! Likewise, if you have a Rega 3, why run out and buy the MH7! The difference is not great enough to justify that in my opinion! I expressed the opinion that the MH5 was a "best buy" table, especially for someone getting into analog. It would be a worthy table that could be the only one they ever need to buy. And unless you are playing nothing but boutique quality exotic pressings, you are not going to realize much more by going up in price. Of course if you do, I assume you folks feel that you need to have exotic interconnects or Monster cables too!;-) You probably are shaking your heads no, but that is just what you are doing with the turntable. Should someone just getting into analog buy a $2000 turntable to play old Pink Floyd? Hardly. And I have far too large a collection of exotic pressings and pristine commercial recordings. And I wish that I could justify spending that much money on a turntable. But like it or not, you are limited with even the best of the normal commercial pressings. And I love esoteric engineering! I have too many degrees in physics and have spent my life dealing with various aspects of it. And I LIKE nice 'stuff'! I look damned good in a Porsche! And just as I can appreciate the engineering and would LOVE to have the newest Porsche Carrera GTs, I can easily appreciate the esoteric qualities of any turntable or exotic amp. But does it make sense in the practical world? Sorry guys. And was the initial question "how much can I spend on a new turntable?" I fear I have ruffled some feathers by seeming to step on the opinions of a few who feel their equipment has been slighted, and I am sorry about that. But the challenge was to find the best gear, not in a cost no object world, but within reasonable constraints. And to play old vinyl! You don't need an exotic turntable to do that! After all, that is like requiring Pass Lab or Krell monoblocks to listen to mid-fi MP3s!!!!!(And know I am sure that someone else feels slighted because I demeaned their MP3 collection! Oh well!) So my response was with regards to a best buy, biggest return on the investment! Not some esoteric golden ears debate. May I suggest you go back and re-read the original request? This was not about what is the best turntable for less than $3000! But if you have the money, and your priorities say spend it, by all means, be my guest. And if you have any left over I can think of a few other toys for which to allocate it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 "I fear you have...." Gee, and after I bought the expensive boutique titanium keyboard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgewound Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Geesh, sorry I asked a simple question about quality. Didn't expect an economics lecture. There's lots of Klipsch stuff on eBay too. Does what you think apply there too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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