Would new Heritage need crossover upgrades?

[chuckears]

I have read for some years that the older Heritage speakers do well with upgraded crossovers. I am just curious as to what everyone's take is on the new units that Klipsch is manufacturing? If I were to buy new LaScalas, would their crossovers be good-to-go OOB, or would they need one of Bob's, Dean's, or Al's creations to make them really sing?

[Guest Anonymous]

I hope not?!

[Frzninvt]

Geez, you wouldn't even pony up the dough to pay for the upgraded K-Stack Academy network and now your asking about even more expensive networks for brand new very expensive Heritage speakers you don't even own?

Anyway, to answer your question. No. The current Ax-4 networks would not need any updating unless you didn't like the sound, but what would be the point of purchasing new speakers with new networks that you didn't like?

[chuckears]

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On 7/22/2005 8:45:57 AM Frzninvt wrote:

Geez, you wouldn't even pony up the dough to pay for the upgraded K-Stack Academy network and now your asking about even more expensive networks for brand new very expensive Heritage speakers you don't even own?

Anyway, to answer your question. No. The current Ax-4 networks would not need any updating unless you didn't like the sound, but what would be the point of purchasing new speakers with new networks that you didn't like?

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Frzninvt,

Wow, I wasn't aware that I had removed that much skin from your back... my K-Stack evaluation was, I thought, between me and Chris ("popbumper").

I found it impossible to listen to after installing it, due to the painfully shrill highs. I was not willing to give it any more break-in than the two weeks or so that I listened... my family watches a lot of movies, and if it is an un-enjoyable experience, why would I spend $200 to torture my ears?

It was not at all a question of "ponying up the dough", but rather the fact that I was no longer able to enjoy my system. If I had found it to be an upgrade I enjoyed, the money would not have been an issue... but that became a moot point when I was faced with the fact that, to my ears, this did not represent an upgrade at all.

I was perfectly willing to keep all of this to myself, but seeing as how you not only know about my evaluation of this upgrade, but are also willing at the drop of a hat to fire away at me about it, there it is.

As for my question: I have been reading a lot about crossover upgrades to Heritage speakers; a LaScala HT is one of my dream systems (one of those "If I won the lottery or something" dreams), I was just wondering, for the purpose of being knowledgable, if the new networks were as up to snuff as the drivers seem to be.

I find your reply insulting, displaying the kind of attitude that infuriates me on other forums, and that should not be tolerated on this one.

[Frzninvt]

Then why would you want to further torture your sensitive ears with La Scala's! If you think the Academy is shrill with a new network, La Scala's certainly wouldn't be tolerable for you. It just doesn't make sense.

Perhaps, some Vandersteens are in order.

[chuckears]

Heh... I can see there's no hope in this discourse. You obviously have a problem with me because I did not share your opinion of the K-Stack upgrade... an opinion made by me, in my house, with my gear, to my ears.

If anyone else wants to offer .02 worth of opinion on my original question, hopefully devoid of back-handed insults, feel free.

Otherwise, I'll stick to the other sections of the forum, where I hopefully will not offer Frznsmfpjdkflns further opportunity to pull out his Forum Flame-Thrower.

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

All manufactureres, including Klipsch, seek to minimize their expenses by using the least expensive designs that will do the job. This means there will ALWAYS be something to gain by upgrading. The crossover network is a prime candidate!

Al K.

[scott0527]

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On 7/22/2005 8:16:50 AM chuckears wrote:

I have read for some years that the older Heritage speakers do well with upgraded crossovers. I am just curious as to what everyone's take is on the new units that Klipsch is manufacturing? If I were to buy new LaScalas, would their crossovers be good-to-go OOB, or would they need one of Bob's, Dean's, or Al's creations to make them really sing?

----------------

Reading your original question, I would say NO, they don't NEED crossover upgrades and yes, they would be good-to-go OOB. The upgrading of older crossovers is often needed because the components are 30-40 years old and worn out. Also some very bright people have had time to come up with improved designs(possibly).

In my opinion any improvements you would get by upgrading brand new Klipsch crossovers would be extremely subtle or imagined.

[chuckears]

scott,

Thanks for the pleasant reply to my question... it is unlikely I will ever be able to use this knowledge, but it's always nice to be more informed.

[Deang]

Something's not right, it shouldn't do that to the sound. I've done over a dozen of each of the older series and have never heard a complaint like that. In fact, all the feedback I get says it's smoother, richer, and more open -- without the overbearing HF characteristics. I assume you returned the K-stack, and Chris gave it a good going over to make sure something didn't accidently get wired wrong?

At any rate, the new networks are very complex with very high part counts. I owned AK-4 networks, and I desperately wanted to upgrade the capacitors, but it was cost prohibitive. I'm sure dumping the polyesters in favor of some nice polypropylenes in the midrange and tweeter circuits would really have opened things up nicely -- just too much money!

[cjgeraci]

I think like everything in life, it depends.... on what sound you want out of your LaScalas, what you are looking for, how large the room would be, and what you would be running them with (tubes, ss, etc.) For sure, the latest version Klipsch crossovers found in the new Klipschorns, LaScalas, and Belles are one of the best, if not the best incarnation of the Klipsch network design, and probably sound the smoothest out of all the Klipsch networks. I have found some of the aftermarket designs from Dean and Al to have superior overall quality of sound in certain respects over various Klipsch networks (A-AK3), but I honestly cannot provide a comparison between aftermarket designs and the AK-4 (and its LaScala and Belle counterparts). Some people have heard both:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=68334&sessionID={7AA31AAB-B82F-4191-94F4-10E3049EBEB4}

There is no doubt that the latest Klipsch networks sing. But, only your ears could tell you if you would prefer the sound of an aftermarket design over the latest, greatest version of the mighty Heritage.

BTW, Dean: I can now solder. Hoo, hoo - very, very happy.

Carl.

[popbumper]

Dean:

In fact the network was returned, checked out, retested, and resold to another customer who was very happy with it. As I rolled these out early on, Chuckears did me a favor by honestly evaluating the network and giving me feedback according to his preferences. He did not spend a dime to do so, and I appreciated his candor for taking the time.

I have nothing bad to say about the experience. From my point of view, one man's opinion is not necessarily my own, and I should respect that.

Chris

[Dflip]

chuckears, if you do some research on networks and check some of Bob Crites comments you will see him testing older capacitors, including the original cans that Klipsch used. Many of them are out of spec after twenty to thirty years, eg. a 2.0 uF cap measuring 1.363 uF. From my understanding the network requires a certain value, within 10%, 5% is better to make the system work properly and to sound best. It also sets the crossover point between speakers. As you can see from below (BEC), the difference is 0.66, a little over 30% of off spec. Also the new capacitors are made of better material and good ones will affect the sound and be more accurate. Different capacitors can yield different sounds, depends if you want detailed accuracy or a slight mellowing?

It is sort of like owning a tube amp, the old capacitors end up out of spec over time and need to be replaced to bring the amp back up to spec. You are doing the same with your speakers.

[pauln]

Keep on dreaming about your future LaScalas Chuckears. I dreamed for a long time - but it came true. Here is the new 2005 LaScala AL-4. It does not look cheap to me and it sounds great to me. I think it has been described on this forum by those that know to be a fairly steep band pass network (6th order Linkwitz-Riley - 36dB/octave).

I have heard old Khorns, Cornwalls, Belles, and owned Heresys for 30 years. I have never heard an old LaScala, but my new ones sound great.

Paul

[D-MAN]

My bet on new stuff is "NO".

Old - absolutely.

My motto is to never hack-up something that you're still making payments on. Only after its paid for....

DM

[jwc]

oohh,

That AL-4 is up close....I can see some "values". Think someone could have copied down a schematic?

[jbsl]

I have a pair of 2004 La Scalas and a single 1976 center channel La Scala. When I got the 1976 LS it was very obvious the 2004 sounded much better. I had BEC build me a new AA crossover and the sound has gotten better but the 2004s still sound much better.

I thought it might have been the Denon receiver I use for the center channel but hooked it up to my Luxman preamp/Cayin tube amp on the left channel and 2004 LS on the right. The 2004 was much better sounding. The 76 LS sounds great in Home Theater, voices, explosions sound great. But with SACD or DVD audio it sounds ok as the center speaker but not like the 04s. Like Dean said with more money the crossover could sound better but how much more?

In the future may get half the upgrade kit from Klipsch.

I'm going to buy 2 Merlins and use one for center channel duties only. I'll have to use 2 volume controls but with a new crossover and drivers for the center LS it should sound great.

Xman

[Deang]

The new Heritage speakers sound better because Klipsch finally put a bandpass on the squawker. They've also added EQ for the bass, as well as the squawker circuit to compensate for anomolies in the K-55/K-401's response.

[Daddy Dee]

Chuckears,

You ask an interesting question and one I think is probably not often considered. Perhaps even less often subjected to actual testing. There would be a fair amount of conventional thought toward the idea of taking vintage Heritage and moving it up to the spec of something like the AK-4 crossover. I've not heard it, but hear good things about it and it certainly looks like it is the result of good work on the part of Klipsch.

I would love the opportunity to listen to a pair of bone stock new Khorns and then drop in a set of ALK ES crossovers and just listen to see what I could hear. Now, that would make a great weekend.

It would be correct to note, I think, that all the new gear is still built to a price point with compromises made to achieve the PP. So, I guess like all Klipsch gear, it could be made to be better. In this real of truly high end gear, it has been my observation, that it gets harder and harder to tell the difference between "different" and "better".

As always, what is "worth it" is a completely subjective question which goes beyond what someone can "hear" or "appreciate" but goes on into the real of what one wants to spend to achieve any given result.

Excellent food for thought. Thanks for posting.