Daddy Dee Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 A little history... more than three years ago when I got my first tube amp, a vintage integrated, my wife and I were listening to tracks on the Girl from Ipanema CD. There was one track which had quite a bit of brush on snare drum background percussion. Volume was only moderate, she prefers SPL levels less than mine which would be considered modest by alot of folks. Anyway, when this track comes on, and the drummer is stirring the brushes on the snares, she says, "What is that?" Actually I'd wondered the same thing for a moment and then recognized what it was and thought also, it didn't sound right. I have noticed this same issue with many different recordings and many different amps with greater or lesser distortion reproducing this element of music. I use the term distortion not because it's really unpleasant, just doesn't sound right. Does SS do better reproducing this sound? I haven't gone to the trouble to find out... it just had never occurred to me before listening with tube amps. This is the one element of music that does not sound "live" on my system. Most of the time it's not bothersome, but I kind of tune it out because to listen critically isn't pleasing on this matter. It may be that I notice this on Klipsch Heritage, because of the revealing nature of the speakers. Also have wondered if there is something about the sound which makes phase or some such thing an issue and difficult to record well. Has anyone else experienced this? Anyone have an understanding as to what is going on here? Appreciate your take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 It must be the heritage speakers! OK, I could not resist....... I know what you are talking about. If you listen critically to music you will end up noticing a few things that do not sound live.... Orchestra music for me is never able to be reproduced live. To much information is not able to be reproduced in your living room, such as hall reflections, dynamics etc. Solo instruments are AWESOME on Klipsch speakers and always sound live to me. Right there in your living room! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 It's probably the nature of the brushes, as they don't start and stop cleanly, by design, they tend to sound "fuzzy". IMHO of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 I know it's all fine to blame the speakers or the recording. but if mr. dee cant reproduce this audible distortion on some of his SS gear, then it's definately the tube distortion. I've probably said it too many times, but tubes distort just like an equalizer, they boost and cut on certian freq's for better or for worse. to me it sounds like you found a recording where the typically plesant distortion the tube provides is not quite so plesant. Again, just to make sure it's the not the recording/speakers and specifically the tube amp, i would try a simple amp swap. -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 EDIT: As just an observation, those kinds of sounds are a massive aggregate of many, many frequencies with lots of random overtones. As such, these sound masses have always seemed to me to be the hardest to reproduce and probably to record. Likewise cymbals and even triangles, which are also non-pitched aggregates of sound. All these seem to go further to stress out reproducing ability than other, pitched instruments. The excellent quality components listed in Dee's system profile shouldn't be wanting, so I do wonder about the recordings. Is this a problem with redbook digital? Is more power needed for these sounds if played loudly? Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 I'm starting a rumor that SE-OTL's will fix that phenomena... oops, you didn't want to hear that huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 ---------------- On 7/31/2005 9:33:59 AM bkrop wrote: It's probably the nature of the brushes, as they don't start and stop cleanly, by design, they tend to sound "fuzzy". IMHO of course. ---------------- If these were brushes on so-called "sizzle" cymbals (the ones with loose rivets in oversized holes) the answer would be obvious. Like others, I would like to hear an AB comparison with a really good SS amplifier. The quality of the recording could be a large factor. There are just so many variables. And dare I suggest that Dee's amplifiers and top-notch speakers are passing along some undisirable recording defect that SS fails to detect. DUCK! (where?!). DR BILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Dee, I know EXACTLY what you are describing. I even think I know the song(s) since I've played that SACD quite often. I have the same issue with my Scott 299b/cornwall system but not so much with my MkIIIs/BBX/Khorn combo (it's there but not nearly as pronounced). Seems there's less distortion on the latter system. I don't know the answer but I chalk it up to having to take the bad with the good. I still prefer my Scott to SS even if Diana Krall's S's sound a bit more shrill and brushes on cymbals sometimes sound strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 The quality of the recording I bet is the culprit to me. Certainly at moderate volumes, the openness and "airy feeling" of warm tubes should not be a problem. That said a very good SS amp would/should produce the same result? Try other recordings and see. Klipsch are very revealing speakers. The old saying of "If you do not like what goes in, your certainly not going to like what comes out" makes sense here too. Hope this helps possibly answer your question! I will, however, disagree with your "Likewise cymbals and even triangles, which are also non-pitched aggregates of sound." They are very much pitched, especially bells, triangles, and yes certainly cymbals too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 ---------------- On 7/31/2005 5:16:24 PM IndyKlipschFan wrote: I will, however, disagree with your "Likewise cymbals and even triangles, which are also non-pitched aggregates of sound." They are very much pitched, especially bells, triangles, and yes certainly cymbals too. ---------------- Althugh bells (which I didn't mention) do have definite pitch, "instruments of indefinite pitch," which include cymbals and triangles, do not. That said, triangles blend very well with pitched instruments and appear to have pitches because they seem to take on the nearby instruments' frequencies. The same thing is true of bass drums, incidentally. Cymbals don't do that so much. This is discussed in orchestration texts such as Adler's "The Study of Orchestration." These non-pitched instruments mass their random sounds in different parts of the musical range, which makes one think they have pitches. For example, there are something like three sizes of triangles, and the larger ones sound deeper than the smaller ones. However, they're still all un-pitched. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 The guy who sold me my B&K EX4420 said that he used it with a tube preamp (which I shall try soon, courtesy of Dee), and felt that he was getting the best of both worlds, with the preamp sweetening up the sound, while the amp still giving him the power of solid-state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 31, 2005 Author Share Posted July 31, 2005 Gentlemen, thanks for your take on this. Curious stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Larry, I will have to look that up. As a lead singer and PT percussionist in a past RnR band life, I will still disagree. Triangles do have a very distinct pitch both large and small and cymbals are often matched in a set. Look at PASTE or other brands and listen to them. There is a def note within sizes sought after and mass produced. Certainly between smaller ones and say a gong a (very large symbol) you hear a tone for sure. I will ask my percussion friends to be exact. Chimes are for sure tuned as are wind chimes and those by Latin Percussion brand for sure.... I still will look into it, because if your right, I will stand corrected. Look for the info below under percussion as to what I found. http://www.ksanti.net/free-reed/description/taxonomy.html Percussion Instruments Idiophones body of instrument vibrates Pitched Struck Triangle Bell Gong Cymbal Xylophone Marimba Celesta Rubbed Prayer Bowls Glass Harmonica Plucked Music Box Kalimba, Mbira Unpitched Struck Slit Drum Castanets Shaken Rattle Jingles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Roger, the chart in your link is very interesting (and a lot of work for someone) and indeed shows the triangle, gong, and cymbal as being "pitched." OTOH, this web page -- http://www.brasscrest.com/instru/instru010.html -- while limited to only some percussion and doesn't include the gong, specifically says that the triangle and several kinds of cymbals are "of indefinite pitch" (which I guess is academese for non-pitched). Those are the categorizations I'm used to. The web page does mention how some like larger cymbals have deeper tones, but are still said to be of indefinite pitch. My Adler orchestration textbook says that the metal instruments of indefinite pitch are cymbales, triangles, cowbells, tam-tams and other gongs, and metal wind chimes. Cowbells...who knew? Edit: The significance of this in my mind is that indefinite-pitch instruments produce masses of pitches that I, at least, have always thought present a greater challenge to recording and playback. Only MHO/$0.02. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 calling this a "tube amp" problem, is a stretch, i would say .... sounds like it may more properly be called a XYZ manufacturer amplifier idiosyncratic problem ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 It is crazy sometimes where these lead... topic wise. I still stand by I can hear differences in pitch. AND that percussionists also pick out pitches in chimes, cymbols, and lots of things mentioned.. I know I did/do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 ---------------- On 7/31/2005 5:13:36 PM garymd wrote: I don't know the answer but I chalk it up to having to take the bad with the good. I still prefer my Scott to SS even if Diana Krall's S's sound a bit more shrill and brushes on cymbals sometimes sound strange. ---------------- I picked up Paul Simons remastered Graceland with bonus tracks which is a great album. I noticed something the other day the S's on a particular track are so distracting that I don't want to listen to it. This is the first time I have had this reaction to a recording. I do need new 6SN7's in my preamp but I don't know if that would cause this problem. Would rope caulking the horns help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 ---------------- On 7/31/2005 10:03:40 PM seti wrote: ---------------- On 7/31/2005 5:13:36 PM garymd wrote: I don't know the answer but I chalk it up to having to take the bad with the good. I still prefer my Scott to SS even if Diana Krall's S's sound a bit more shrill and brushes on cymbals sometimes sound strange. ---------------- I picked up Paul Simons remastered Graceland with bonus tracks which is a great album. I noticed something the other day the S's on a particular track are so distracting that I don't want to listen to it. This is the first time I have had this reaction to a recording. I do need new 6SN7's in my preamp but I don't know if that would cause this problem. Would rope caulking the horns help? ---------------- Maybe a little. Maybe a lot. It's hard to tell without trying. Caulking helped mine a little. I/Cs can make a big difference also. So can XOvers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 31, 2005 Author Share Posted July 31, 2005 Gary, interesting. In my experience, it was also on a 299B where this effect was most pronounced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 ---------------- On 7/31/2005 7:53:58 AM Daddy Dee wrote: Does SS do better reproducing this sound? I haven't gone to the trouble to find out... It may be that I notice this on Klipsch Heritage... ---------------- There are several tracks on my CD's that have quite intricate brush work. I'm not quite sure what the mixing engineeer intended, but on my Klipschorns, driven by tubes, the brushwork was more 'pronounced' compared to other loudspeakers I've heard and owned. When I was driving my Klipschorns with 50 watt per channel solid state, the brushwork was quieter. I suggest that my solid state amplifier does not have the headroom of my similarly powered tube amplifier. You would need a lot more power in solid state to compete with the dynamic ability of a 20 to 30 watt tube amp. My current Heresys, driven by a solid state amp, brushwork is definitely less pronounced compared to the Klipschorns. On the subject of the Klipschorn, this loudspeaker is probably portraying an accurate rendition of brushwork. Klipschorns are often criticised for a 'larger than life' sound - lacking in 'imagary' and 'depth'. But in real life, the kettle drum SHOULD sound big and bold and perhaps lacking a little control. String and woodwind instruments should sound rich and vibrant. We should be able to hear not only the actual instrument being played, but also that instrument's interaction with what is around it. I argue that other loudspeakers are not as capable as the Klipschorn - offering a little cardboard cutout of each instrument in it's own space so that it is easily assimilated by the listener and is frequently mistaken for accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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