reznil Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Just bought 2 khorns (1974) and noticed that my Heresy's (1983) seem to sound crisper and more detailed overall, except for the real low bass, there the khorns win. I thought the khorns should sound at least as good or better all around. Any thoughts? 2 Khorns (1974), 2 Heresys (1983), Outlaw 750 power amp, Audiology 2 ZS card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I think it is the amp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 two things: 1. take a while listening before deciding on relative sounds 2. check the khorns for problems, like leaky caps, blown drivers on the tweeter and midrange, etc. a heresey isn´t fit to hold the jock strap of a khorn if everything is ok with both...I have both and the heresey, at best, makes a good surround speaker or bedroom speaker...night and day really...tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 You've gotten some good trouble shooting advice from Sunnysal. Something is not right, for sure. If you are getting sound from every driver in the Khorns, my guess is that the crossover caps have drifted off spec. It's not expensive to have them refreshed to factory spec. "BEC" Bob Crites, on this forum is a good resource for that. If you are interested in crossover upgrades beyond that, there are some very good possibilities with Al Klappenberger or DeanG also on this forum. When the Khorns are running right, and IMO an easy fix, they will blow you away and blow the Heresy's out of the water. If you've got any bad diaphragms on the tweeter or mid-drivers, for a quick fix, you could swap out the drivers from the Heresy cabs. It is also possible that the connections on the crossover don't have good contacts. Just loosen and retighten the screws, clean those contacts if dirty. Sometimes it can be as simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Are you playing CDs in a computer through the sound card through the 165W/Ch amp throught the KHorns? I would not expect this signal path to sound good. It probably does not sound as good as the Heresys because the KHorns are playing through all the gunk from your upstream gear that the lesser Heresys could not reveal. There might be some fancy speaker cables or powers cords that could help out in this situation, or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 This is the crossover time for the Heresy. Are they original Heresys or the newer design? If the original, the tweeter is the same for KHorn as for the Heresy. Same for the mid driver. I would be more inclined to think you have something out of spec on the KHorns. Tony! Stop dissin' my Heresys. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Depends on what you mean by "crisper." "Thinner" may be a better description if comparing to Khorns of equal condition. Maybe you like "crisper" better. Khorns are able to fill a room more than twice the size of Heresys. What size is your room? (I really don't have any idea what this person's problem is, I have only heard Khorns once and Heresys a few times. I can't imagine Heresys of the same quality sounding better than properly installed Khorns. Heresy DID get it's name honestly, I suppose.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Wait, slow down! I think it far too premature to start concluding that the crossovers are bad or the amp is incorrect. Take some time and listen to the speakers. The Heresys should sound good, they are not a bad speaker cabinet. It is doubtful that the amp (if it is working) is the problem since the K-Horns are quite efficient and do not present a low impeadnce to the amp (it is a very easy load for for an amp to drive). Why not try spending some time in placing/locating the speaker and your listening chair. Unless there is soemthing terribly wrong with your crossover or amp (as was suggested above), placement and set up will have a far more dramatic effects on the sound. When folks use terms like "crisp" and "detailed" it sometimes indicates that the highs are lacking (this is why stero salesmen turn up the treble knob - an old trick). Have a listen - are all the drivers working. A loose cable or blown tweeter is much more likely (probablistically) than crossover or inadequate amplifier. Troubleshoot the obvious things first, Good luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 The caps are over 30 years old. They're finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Dean is no doubt correct about the "caps", but what he did not say is that the capacitors are probably very high in resistance. New capacitors will give you new speakers if all of the drivers work. The usual suspects all do good work on crossovers. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reznil Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 Thanks so much for your comments. Well, I had done some basic troubleshooting before I wrote. All the drivers are "working" in that when I covered the mid and covered the tweeter the sound changed noticable. I could feel the woofer moving when I opened up the side panel. Whether they are working right is another question. (Yes, securely closed the side panel again) They are all hooked to the same amp (Outlaw 750 5 channel amp, 165 watts) with 14 gauge monster cable. Everything is the same, which is why every variable except the speakers are eliminated. I tightened the screws of the crossover as recommended here, they were already tight though. I took a close look at the crossover, their are no outward signs of anything wrong with the caps or the coils, it looks like they had a good life. I had my wife listen, she says I'm high and that the khorns are fuller all the way around. Upon further listening, I agree. I also did a blind study with my wife (who has better hearing) on 128 MP3 and the original CD, to compare quality. No definite advantage was evident, even with my good amp and speakers. I am glad, I know some people have reripped their cd collection at 160 MP3 when the price of large capacity hard disks came down. I have a lot of music, I really don't want to rip it all again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Bad capacitors will not usually show any external sign of going bad. Test gear is needed to measure both the capacitance and resistance. Apparently capaciatance can be ok while resistance may be quite high when it should be near zero. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reznil Posted August 24, 2005 Author Share Posted August 24, 2005 It looks fairly simple to replace the caps myself. Is there any easy answer to which caps are best? Are DynamiCaps best? It might be worth a try to swap them out and see if it sounds better, after all 30 years is a long time for a capacitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 You need to get new Caps from BEC and rebuild the crossovers easy to do , also do you have the K-Horns sealed into the corner? You said you checked the crossovers screws but did you unscrew then tighten them down could be bad conection still.As far as the year of yours go i found air leaks in the bass bin...small ones but still there..i sealed them up and checked bass bin with air pressure without woofer in it...they are sealed tight now.You might want to unscrew the mid range driver and make sure there is nothing in the throat of the horn....i replaced that washer in there on mine to.Well hope this helps a little bit, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfandbark Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 two Khorns bubbling up from the bottom of a pond should still sound better than a pair of Heresies.. I know this isn't any help. WOOF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Heresys are awesome sounding "little" speakers, "two thirds of a Klipschorn" PWK said. Where they really differ is the bass. The horn loaded Khorn bass is bigger, deeper and faster. I can almost see why your initial impression was as it was. The percived lack of mids/highs is just the differences between the two with the Khorn more properly balanced, just "new" to your ears. That said, I too recommend refreshing your crossovers. I bought my Khorns new in '77 and never noticed the slow decline in the capacitors. After lurking on the forum for a while I learned the benefits of new caps. The difference was immediate and greatly improved the enjoyment of my aging horns. Like new shocks in the old buggy. I now run AL K's Type A networks. After experimenting with different Klipsch AA and A configurations, I found Al's networks sounded best to me with their ability to adjust the squaker level to my room. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 ---------------- On 8/23/2005 11:17:26 PM reznil wrote: I also did a blind study with my wife (who has better hearing) on 128 MP3 and the original CD, to compare quality. No definite advantage was evident, even with my good amp and speakers. I am glad, I know some people have reripped their cd collection at 160 MP3 when the price of large capacity hard disks came down. I have a lot of music, I really don't want to rip it all again! ---------------- Well this explains your problem...you really should be able to instantly notice the differences between mp3 and the original cd. Do you have cmss and all the other features turned off on your card? There's gotta be something somewhere that is masking the difference between the two formats. It will be like night and day. In all honesty, until you improve your source material (ie, get to a point where you can hear the difference) you won't be able to appreciate any of the other suggestions already mentioned. I don't think the audigy2 is that bad of a sound card to warrant it unreasonable for khorns, but mp3's should really sound very awful. What playback program are you using on the computer (for ABing between mp3 and CD)? Do you also have all the wierd features turned off in the program too? Anyways, if you still can't hear the difference then either there is something wrong with your card or amp or something...otherwise consider yourself very lucky that you don't hear the difference and can simply enjoy your music since that's what it's all about anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 bruce, I too like heresey, as long as they are used within thier limits...I say small room and ideally a big subwoofer. reznil, I think it would be worth the trouble to replace the caps in the crossover, as dean mentioned they cannot be in spec at this point, it cannot hurt to freshen the crossovers. I think with time you will come to appreciate the sound the khorns produce, however if it is not night and day in favor of the khorns I have to suspect something wrong with the crossover and or drivers (diaphragms, etc.). both dean and alk can advise on best caps, solen poly caps at minimum I would say. re: MP3 vrs CD I have to say dr.who is right, the difference is noticable, I have had good results playing MP3s through my main system but if I do not use lossless codecs I notice significant differences, especially in the high frequencies and "airiness" of the sound. at 128k the sound is listenable as background, fun music but it lacks air and highend clarity and extension IMHO, I use 128k and 160k for burning CDs for my car and boombox, I cannot tolerate it at home where CD still rules the roost. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Tony, I'm just playin' with you. There should be a noticable difference between the two, in favor of the KHorns. Getting the crossovers freshened up a bit would probably be the least expensive 'fix' for these. I rip to mp3 at 320k. Still way smaller than the wav/cda file and the sound is tolerable. Even with the new Merlin in my system. Got to say that it is wonnderful. Imaging is solid as a rock, even on 128k mp3 files. With CDs it's just better. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I't the SOURCE... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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