Cornwall III

[jwc]

I would love to 'tear up' some of 'my' music on these speakers. Going from my F3's (they are mean speakers that can kick your @$$) to the Chorus II's is amazing. The bass on the F3's would put most 'consumer' subwoofers to shame, but then you play with the Chorus II's...wow - they have some serious slam with about 2mm of cone excursion.

One of my favorite things to play with is a DJ Krush track where there are some bass sweeps that go from about 150 Hz. right down to nill. With the F3's (in a small room and my big Harman Kardon), you go from hearing the bass to a shaking floor. The Chorus II's take it a step further with pressurising the room. It would be fun to see how this will work with the new stuff if they are pull the bass down even further.

I highly doubt it. That low rumble sound won't come from that Cornwall unless the "sound" has been changed. I had a pair of Cornwall's and later have made CW-like bass bins. The sound was always the same..."Quick" and kinda low. I would bet that your Chorus line will still rattle your house better than the CWIII's. I had a pair of KG 5.2 that would do just what you are speaking of. My Cornwall's sitting in the same space off the same equipment wouldn't do that. Although, I thought the bass from the Cornwall was more "natural". It would fair poorly on some rap music if I were demoing them. The Cornwall's sounded much better with instruments and snare drum sounds. It's just a different sound.

[kenratboy]

I heard the same thing about the horn-loaded woofers, less low bass,

but more natural. I assumed the Cornwall's would be different

because they did not have the horn.

Maybe Klipsch needs to modify one of their pro 18" woofers and make a

killer Heritage sub (they could use a modified/changed version of the

THX sub amp)

[jwc]

concur,

When I want to impress by shaking the house, I turn on the two HSU subs I have.

When I listen to Diane Krall or live concert CD's, the subs are off and two channel only. The Heritage "sound" comes through. Can't wait to hear the CWIII's.

jc

[formica]

I heard the same thing about the horn-loaded woofers, less low bass,

but more natural. I assumed the Cornwall's would be different

because they did not have the horn.

I guess it's all in what you expect... after having heard the same

thing for years, i was pleasantly surprised to find Klipschorns had as

much bass as my Cornwalls, and are nowhere as lean sounding as

LaScalas. They are just much "cleaner" than Cornwalls in both

bass and midrange... even in my compromised room.

So... "more natural"... Yes ... "less low bass"... Nope []

Rob

[TBrennan]

Well the open E on my Fender Jazzbass is what, 42-44hz?

[jt1stcav]

When playing good pipe organ recordings through my '79 C-BR decorators, I would miss the lowest bass octave from the organ's 32' pedal pipes (which can play to 16Hz at low C depending on the rank). But with full organ and every pedal stop pulled out (consisting of a 32', many 16', 8', and 4' stops, a 2' or mutation maybe, a III or IV rank of mixtures, and then all the reed stops at 32', 16' and 8'), with all that rich low harmonic structure and texture, I didn't really miss that lowest octave all that much there was so much more to listen to and experience...the sensation is an explosion of sound that literally fills the senses! The lowest octave at 25Hz and below is just the icing on the aural cake.[]

[DrWho]

Well the open E on my Fender Jazzbass is what, 42-44hz?

I thought it was 32Hz actually...too lazy to look it up though [] But

find a bass player implementing an octave drop on his rig and you're

looking at 16Hz notes (which isn't too uncommon in the new age rock era

- though you don't listen to any of that) []

[LarryC]

32 Hz (actually 32.7) is the "16-foot" C, and the E just above is around 41 Hz. That's the lowest note of the standard string bass. These are very low notes, and pitches an octave below are very difficult or impossible to discern.

[colterphoto1]

A 5 string electric bass would be a fifth lower than E, which would be A or B, right, so that would be even lower than Larry's pipe organ. Or are most 5 string basses strung with a higher string?

Michael

[garymd]

I find it interesting that some who have heard the new Cornwall feel the highs and mids are comparable to the Heresy. I always thought the Cornwall, even with the same drivers, easily outperformed the Heresy from top to bottom. I always assumed it must be the crossover or the cabinet size. If that's not the case anymore, they either greatly improved the Heresy or they need to re-think the new Cornwall. JMO.

[colterphoto1]

Gary, the Cornwall and Heresy have EXACTLY the same high and midrange now.

No wonder we think they sound alike. It's just low end and cabinetry that made the CW3 excel in bass.

Michael

[garymd]

Michael,

Haven't they always? That was my point. Even with the same drivers, I always felt the CW's mids and highs sounded better then the Heresy's. Anyone else? Is it just an illusion on my part? Maybe the upper bass played a part in this illusion?

[DrWho]

Haven't they always? That was my

point. Even with the same drivers, I always felt the CW's mids

and highs sounded better then the Heresy's. Anyone else? Is

it just an illusion on my part? Maybe the upper bass played a

part in this illusion?

Or maybe the presence of real low end actually improves midrange

response. I have found this to always be true in all situations with

all kinds of music. I don't have the time to quantify it, but think

about the complex interactions between all the different frequencies,

etc etc...The lower mids being played by that 15" driver will also have

a narrower dispersion pattern than the 12" in the heresy (which

depending on the room and crossover could be a good or bad thing).

Anyways, I have always felt that properly dialed in low frequency

response does more benefit in the midrange than it does to the low end.

[Marvel]

Gary,

I guess it would depend on the mid horn used for both now. The Corwall

(orig. and II) crossed at 600Hz while the Heresy (orig. and II) corssed

at 700Hz. That might make all the difference to you.

If they both use the same horns and drivers for the mid and tweets they

could match much better. Might make a Corwall left/right and Heresy

center way more attractive.

Bruce

[LarryC]

Gary,

I guess it would depend on the mid horn used for both now. The Corwall (orig. and II) crossed at 600Hz while the Heresy (orig. and II) crossed at 700Hz. That might make all the difference to you.

The new crossover point we heard in Hope was 800 for both the Heresy and Cornwall. 800 is getting up there for the fundamental pitches of even treble instruments, while 600 reaches down to more treble fundamentals and overtones of lower-pitched instruments. I am also a believer in a larger horn mouth having a more open sound -- anyway, I thought the upper mids and highs of the two were just a bit too similar.

EDIT: 600 is slightly above the first D above the 440 A used to tune an orchestra. 800 is slightly above the G above that. In terms of musical intervals, I think the difference is close to a fourth, which is a pretty significant difference IMO.

[formica]

Michael,

Haven't they always? That was my point. Even with the same drivers, I always felt the CW's mids and highs sounded better then the Heresy's.

Ummm... they used to use the same drivers, but different midrange Horn... which allowed a different x-over point (Heresy = K700 and a 700Hz crossover while the Cornwall = K600 with... you guessed it a 600Hz crossover). Apart from the bass balance, they would have sounded quite different...

They now share the same Horn Lens... and drivers. Cheaper to produce...

Rob

[colterphoto1]

600 vs 700 hz is only 100 out of 600 hz difference or roughly 1/6 of the musical octave (ignoring the logarithmic scale), which is only a couple of notes, how could they be that different unless it was something in the way the horns intereacted with the xover and bass section.

It'd be interesting to do a response test of just the mid/hi setups of those two speakers to test this hypothesis.

M

[jwc]

I find it interesting to see Klipsch cross the CW3 at 800Hz. I unfortunately didn't get to hear them at the Heritage gathering. If they do sound as good as everyone is saying, it almost defies much logic that has been preached here on this forum.

Typically, one seeked sound improvement by lowering the XO point btwn the woofer and midrange. This is kinda why the whole Cornscala thing got started was to bring this XO point to 400Hz and pick a better midhorn of the K401 vs the K600.

So why is it then when people went on and on comparing the La Scala to the Cornwall, the results were always the same. I really don't need to spell this out again unless the reader of this post is a newbie here. It basically boiled down to the "unsatisfactory" bass of the scala and the "not quite as good" midrange of the Cornwall. Notice I said "not quite as good".

So that is where the K401 got mixed up with the Cornwall bass bin. And to my ears this was an obvious improvement.

So my question is, "why did I get improvement with the Cornscala"? Klipsch now made an "improvement" (haven't heard it yet) of the Cornwall by placing less expensive drivers compared to the new La Scala and bumping the XO of the woof/mid to 800Hz.

Now this is not a slam on Klipsch or a slam to points made by previous (pre CW3) posts on this forum. I am trying to figure out what makes it so great because I want to know!!!! Is it the new design of the network, moving up the woofer, or shortening the port? Or is it just a "newer" sound that gave many the raised eyebrows upon first hearing them.

Give me some insight here.

jc

[BEC]

jc,

Of course there was not a Cornscala at the listening session. I wish there could have been one there. I believe if that had been the case, it would have come in number 1 or 2 in the listening preference test. I think its only competition would have been the Jubilee.

Bob

[TBrennan]

JW---There are those who'd rather hear 400 to 800 (and even higher) reproduced by a high-quality direct-radiator than by a 1" compression driver. And they can make a good case.

Note I said high quality. Personally I think a regular Cornwall with an Altec 416 in place of the K-33 could very well sound better than a Cornscala. I'm somewhat surprised that with all the modding that goes on around here nobody has done that, seems obvious to me.