Best type of capacitors for recapping Type A Xovers?

[NOSValves]

Have you guys been arguing or debating about these for 14 pages? Exactly how much difference does it make or does it??

J.

The technical name for this type of thing is Argubating its just one step below masturbating[]

Craig

[jwc]

Have you guys been arguing or debating about these for 14 pages? Exactly how much difference does it make or does it??

J.

IMOO. This is one of the more useful threads I have read lately. There really wasn't that much of argueing (maybe earlier pages). It was more of a debate that was long overdue. I still have something to prove to myself and that is this higher "quality" cap vs the more "accurate" cap. The info I am getting right now is that the more "accurate" cap is more important for the more Complex network.

Ok fine. Less accuracy at the beginning of the chain will reak more havic at the end.

So the answer I need to find for myself is where this "quality" thing comes into play such as its importance with different types of networks.

For instance. Al says placing the 40uF in the lead cap in his ALK A with a cheaper (albeit accurate) cap has "little" acoustic value. Notice the quotations are my rephrasing here.

So what impact is there if a Solen 13uf cap used instead of say a Hovland 13uf in a first order type A network. I wonder if that "little" acoustic value is the same there.

Anyway, not trying to restart this thread. But this is what this thread did to me/for me.

jc

[NOSValves]

jw,

Remember that Al's comments just like mine, Dean's, Bob's or anyone for that matter is just subjective. You can not measure these differences and many technician's IMHO get bogged down with testing which in turn closes there mind to possibilties. I personally think every single cap in the signal path makes a difference whether it be an amp preamp or crossover. Of course some more then others obviously. I still stand by my innitial post buy the best your wallet can afford. Again I do not mean to buy the most expensive but I also do not think the cheapest is the best. If it is then capacitors are the very first instance that this has been the case in my life buying any product.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Craig,

What's the price of a 91 uF Hovland Musicap for the ES400? There's another small detail with the Hovland 2.2 uF in the ES5800, they are too big to fit on the board!

I know! Details, details!

Al K.

Make the board bigger. Detail solved! Do I get a commission?

Craig

[Al Klappenberger]

"Make the board bigger. Detail solved! Do I get a commission?"

Craig,

NO! You get the bill for the 91 uFd Hovland caps!

Al K.

[NOSValves]

"Make the board bigger. Detail solved! Do I get a commission?"

Craig,

NO! You get the bill for the 91 uFd Hovland caps!

Al K.

I have a wondeful circular file just waiting for them so send away!

Craig

[JSharp]

"...bypassing with a tiny value like that makes absoultely no sense in any way. "

You

had a great explanation for that too. It does appear that using it in

crossovers is probably a waste of time and money, but I haven't done

any critical listening doing it. I guess it's still commonly used in

tube amp power supplies with the big value electrolytics -- but I don't

know why exactly. Craig?

Not Craig and not pertaining to tube amps, but this is commom design

practice on all types of circutry. You'll see a bulk large value

electrolytic bypassed by a smaller tantalum bypassed yet again by a

still smaller ceramic.

It's done because the different types of parts of different values have

different characteristics at certain frequencies. You would think

that going larger in value would always work better for bypassing, but

in fact, you often see reduced noise by going from something like a

.2uf

or.1uf part to a .01uf part. Youre' dealing with the fact that

different cap types have different ESR/frequency curves and different

self resonant fequencies even if they are of the same measured

capacitance. Lead length and postioning matter too since they effect

the overall characteristics of the circuit with the components

connected.

These issues are typically far above the audio range though...

[sunnysal]

"Remember that Al's comments just like mine, Dean's, Bob's or anyone for that matter is just subjective. You can not measure these differences and many technician's IMHO get bogged down with testing which in turn closes there mind to possibilties. I personally think every single cap in the signal path makes a difference whether it be an amp preamp or crossover"

I had to take this opportunity to throw this into the mix, if the unmeasurable differences in capacitors have acoustic repurcussions (I asusme based on the varied materials used and ocntruction details) why then does not different wiring (which exhibit similar materials and contructions variations) have the same effect? I have stated many times before that it surprises me so many people "believe" in capacitors and do not "believe" in wires.

tony

[NOSValves]

Tony,

Just to get the record straight I believe wire can and does change the sound of a system especially IC's. It is also the last place I want the sound changed. Wire is not my chosen path to system tuning.

Craig

[sunnysal]

Craig,

The quote was yours but my observation was not aimed at you. I just thought it appropriate to point out that wierd tendency some people have of being selective in what they "believe".

I have pretty much decided that everything in the signal path can effect the sound...so I am not ashamed to experiment with wires, caps, resistors, trannies and tubes in search of a sound that is most musical to me, in my system, with my music.

Warm regards,

Tony

[NOSValves]

Tony,

I'm not sure of my point came across correctly but I was agreeing with you! I was basically saying that in reference to wire I prefer wires that have the least effect on the sound. Others may like tuning eith cables. If I hear something I don't like I just pull out the old soldering iron[]

Craig

[sunnysal]

I know that craig, I was just using your words as a stepping off point to needle the wire naysayers! those "coathangers are as good as anything out there" guys piss me off! They do the coathanger thing and turn around and tube roll and swap caps...arrggghhh....tony

[WopOnTour]

Craig:

"The anewer to your question is simple the best your wallet will allow you too afford."

This implies that there is a direct correlation between performance and cost. I don't think that is necessarily true.

Erik

After reading through all 15 pages of this thread- this statement rang the truest for ME

Case in point

Lets respec AL K's ALKs (??) using the self-proclaimed "Music's Finest Conductor" <insert highly detailed drum-roll please> the AudioNote Silver/Copper Foil caps shall we?:

4- ANOTE- 64080 2.2uf 600V Silver Foil @$902.00ea $3608.00

8- ANOTE- 64071 10.0uf 300V Copper Foil $203.95ea $1631.60 (for the 39+1)

4- ANOTE- 64081 3.3uf 600V Silver Foil $1,389.90ea $5559.60 (for the 6.2+1)

GRAND TOTAL (not including the $100 or so for the inductors) $10,799.20

That's 36 times the basic ALK DIY kit price of $299

I can say with almost certainty, that no measurement of "performance" could equate to THAT much improvement. Pass the Snake Oil...

JMO

WopOnTour

[tofu]

the 8 10uf caps are worth more than my speakers

[Deang]

Those idiotic caps and equally idiotic prices aside -- there is definitely a relationship between cost and performance when dealing with what is "normally" available. There are exceptions to the rule of course, but like most things in life, you typically get what you pay for.

[WopOnTour]

Those idiotic caps and equally idiotic prices aside -- there is definitely a relationship between cost and performance when dealing with what is "normally" available. There are exceptions to the rule of course, but like most things in life, you typically get what you pay for.

Totally Agree, just using shear lunacy to enter into the debate is all. On another note aren't all those caps from the MCM 1900, oil filled "motor run" cans?? :>0

the 8 10uf caps are worth more than my speakers

Correction: they COST more than your speakers! LOL

WOT

[WopOnTour]

DELETED DUPLICATE POST

[djk]

Cost vs performance is like a curve.

I don't want to be on either the flat horizontal part (low peformance, low cost),

or the flat vertical part (high performance, high cost),

but somewhere on the 'knee' (bang-for-the-buck).

[NOSValves]

Cost vs performance is like a curve.

I don't want to be on either the flat horizontal part (low peformance, low cost),

or the flat vertical part (high performance, high cost),

but somewhere on the 'knee' (bang-for-the-buck).

Excellent post!

[Erik Mandaville]

"Those idiotic caps and equally idiotic prices aside -- there is definitely a relationship between cost and performance when dealing with what is "normally" available."

Not necessarily true. If there were a set standard for the necessary prerequisites for 'best' sound -- perhaps. However, there are too many subjective variables that come into play. Moreover, what constitutes 'high' cost for one person, may in fact be completely different for someone else. In the same line of thinking, what consitutes 'good performance' for one person may just as well be different for someone else.

The Teac amplifier mentioned once again in two channel is an organization of many parts, not just capacitors, and as such performs very well to extremely well, and costs less than certain kinds/brands of capacitors. With that in mind, the Teac also does not use anything more than "normally" available passive components. Transcendent Sound products, which IMO are engineered to a very high standard, also make use of very inexpensive metal film resistors, capacitors, etc. Why? Because designers like Rozneblit and some others I've followed over the past 15 or more years understand that the PRIMARY key to excellent performance is in the design -- NOT its consitutuent parts. I know people who have taken out very high priced caps from projects they've done, simply because they didn't sound as good (to them, which is all that matters) than the very expensive caps, coils, or resistors. I have been told more than once by other builders that they wanted to 'shoot for the sky' with the parts they used for special projects, only to find that less expensive ones happened to be what they preferred -- not because of the lower cost, but because of the overall new sound of the component that was built. But, on the other side of the coin, and I include myself here, there have been times where a more expensive part DID sound better to me; and this is how I have learned to work, over years of building speakers, crossover, amps, and preamps. Use the part that sounds best without regard to cost.

There is not always a direct correlation between performance and cost -- even with commonly available products. The Teac mentioned above is an outstanding COMPLETE component. I have a pair of capacitors in my Horus amps that cost the same as the Teac we bought some months ago. The Teac worked perfectly, silently, and on its own right off the bat; the caps only needed an amplifier to be attached to them (and they are great sounding capacitors in THIS amp.) I also had Jensen oils in the Moondogs, and they sounded sluggish compared to the Horus and Moth (which hasn't a single cap in the signal path). I replaced the expensive caps in the Moondogs with what happens to be far less costly, and I like them better now.

Erik