I Bought Klipschorns :)

[meagain]

My crossovers say AA on them. They are 1981 and I think I read that that year didn't have the alnico magnets? If I can figure out what they are, I'll check. Not sure what 'caps' are either.

Does anyone know where I can download a parts list or schematic of these things? Or has anyone written a book called "khorns for dummies"?

About the Receiver - We heard no distortion, clipping, etc. when cranked. When we talked about the amp issue last night hubby basically said the same thing as PrestonTom & Cal Blacksmith. I think I understand it now. I think I'm OK with this receiver for a bit. It's around $650 and how bad can it be for that price range? Specs: http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC&ser=∏=AVR%20435&sType=C

Tom Blasing: OMG! I looked at the McIntosh stuff and they are about the prettiest things I've ever seen! I'd want one even if it wasn't hooked up! But they appear pretty spendy.

Rictate - "The crossovers can be upgraded easy you can get new oil caps from BEC and maybe change the woofer inductor,take out the diodes if there are any and then do A-B with the old crossover." You are borderline speaking in tongues to me. Are you saying I can change these oil caps & diodes as a first tweak before going hog wild on the crossover deal - and they might improve things? And can anyone point me in the direction of a photo or something with labels?

All I know about them is that when looking at the electronics/wires - they look brand new. Not a spec of dust, corrosion, etc. Either someone spent days cleaning everything or these were kept meticulously. Even the groove in the cord that runs from the top section to the bottom is pristine. The seller bought them 1.5 years ago from his banker who was the wife of the owner in his 60's so he had to be in his 40's when purchased. Seller said they were in a climate controlled room. I didn't know there was a screen on the back of the bottom part. Is that to keep out bugs?

About the finish: They 'are' pretty and if you ask me, I'd call them mint. I think I got really lucky. I'd say the wood color in the pics make it look more 'warm' then they really are. I'll try to snap a daylight pic which will show them more accurately. I'd like to tweak the tone on them to be more like the above pics. No hurry though. It'll take a goodly amount of research on my part. I'm wondering if Walnut darkens over time like Cherry does. bhendrix on page 1 recommended Watco to tone them but I question whether 'adding' a tone would also darken & wonder if I should lighten them a bit first?

The wood does seem a bit physically dry to me and I think they need something but I'm hesitant to add oil right now till I better nail down how I'll treat them in the coming month or so. The wood seems lifeless and minimally, if I can't lighten them without bleaching/redoing (big project), I'd want to bring this grain out & add dimension as they are so 'flat'. I wouldn't mind a bit of a luster/soft sheen - like a 'satin' type sheen - a whisper. I'm wondering if I could use a paste wax where I have control - adding layers and get a soft sheen via hand buffing?

bhendrix (or anyone) - what color Watco should be used here?

About placemnt (my first order of business).... Rictate said "Make sure you seal the tailboard and the horz. part of the bass binn to the corner." What do you mean by tailboard? I just looked at them and see that hubby has everything about 1" from the walls. He didn't flush them up - prolly cuz we're still playing around. I know they should be touching the walls, and they 'use' the walls. If so, would some sort of gasket be contraindicated & defeat the purpose? I'm going to look into the false wall/corners thing. I think Tigerwood has a thread somewhere. I'm not crazy about the search engine here, I tend to fall short. And I think I need to get a manual.

[Jeff Matthews]

They say the corners should be flush up against the wall corner - nice and snug. I'm sure a gasket would be fine. I can't get mine flush because the walls are not perfectly square - or maybe it's the speakers. []

So, I'm about 1/2 - 1 inch off. I'm perfectly satisfied the way they sound as are. So, you can either fit into 1 of 2 categories: (1) bog down in the minutia and become an "ever-tweaker," or (2) rest your mind and enjoy the speaks. I'm in category 2, but I'd like to know about some of these crossovers.

When you get speakers that good, IMO, if you are not dazzled, try a different amp. It seems not enough emphasis is put on amps - but this is a speaker forum, I guess.

I'd lay my money on the table that most people here who have comparable amps to your HK would wet their pants if they heard KHorns through Duke's Crown K-2!

[LarryC]

While they are most probably walnut oil rather than walnut lacquer (the other walnut finish), I suggest you confirm by looking at the labels: KBWO is walnut oil, and KBWL is walnut lacquer.

From what I've read on the forum, walnut oil should be freshened up with boiled linseed oil (BLO). I'd personally be leery of other coatings, but that's just my impression. If lacquer, I prefer a lemon oil like Formby's. NOT BLO.

BLO can be very dangerous: any rag or paper towel soaked in BLO can get very hot and burst into flame if wadded up. I use paper towels and flush them down the toilet right away.

As for the crossovers, not something you'd do yourself! At 24 years old, the old caps could be deteriorating and the sound might be improved with new ones. Bob Crites, "BEC" on the forum, can take care of that, with impressive results. DeanG makes redesigned crossovers, and those are very impressive as well. Al Klappenberger (sp?) makes very highly regarded crossovers of his own design. There are probably others, but these immediately come to mind.

However, since they sound terrific now, no need to rush into that.

The "tailboard" is the verticle rearmost plank. When the K-horn is pushed fully into a square corner, the tailboard will virtually seal itself against the two walls. However, a seal such as pipe insulation or rubber gasket along the sides of the tailboard will ensure a seal. The wire mesh is primarily to keep out pests who otherwise might nest and propagate, and interfere with bass wave propagation.

Larry

[Duke Spinner]

it is more

about the current that the amp can deliver to control the woofer. Thus

tubes are a better fit and tend to sound better than SS

what, Exactly do You mean here, CA............?????

[meagain]

Jeff - I'm in cat. 2 also. We are loving them (but want to learn about crossovers). I can't believe I worried so much about the bass on these & I don't understand how anyone could fault them that way. Bass is SOOOO deep and IMO - punchy. I'M IN BASS HEAVEN! As far as highs, Hubby put in an XTC song he's listened to hundreds of times and said there were things there that he's NEVER heard before thru various systems. Listened to Soundgarden's 'Spoonman' - huh? They had this spoon sound in there? Who knew. We played a zillion things from Nine Inch Nails to Sinatra and we are digging it big time. He did say that he was MISSING a few details with the high end on some stuff which surprised me. He went so far as to say the bass was 'too too' but conceded that he's not used to good bass. He never likes to tweak bass/treble for some reason. For me, this is the first set of speakers I've played with that didn't find me upping the bass on the receiver.

Here's how I have it set up for now. 3/4"? MDF wedged against that bottom ledge of the fireplace wall & the speaker. MDF extends 16.25" past the rear edge of the side grill. We have another piece on hand that would extend this another 24". You can see the wall is textured and the light part is a curtain over a large window area. The window area under the curtains is sadly covered with plastic (ancient windows & it's like 10 deg here). The other side is about the same thing. Window edge is about 1' from the speaker. This speaker has a nice wall. I've zero clue what the window plastic or curtains do. I think our listening angle is also messed up as it sounds more balanced when we walk back in the room. (Can't move the sofa back). This is all a temporary situation, but we have to make do for about a year at least. The MDF thing is on the edge for me in the looks department.

Edit: Larry C. They are KBWO. I'll try to figure out what these 'caps' are and see how much they cost. Thanks for clarification on the 'tailboard'. They are now away from the wall. I'll have hubby shove them as close as possible and try the pipe insulation thing. I actually have those!

This pic more accurately shows the tone of the wood.

[Cal Blacksmith]

In relation to

power, those speakers will deliver 104 db at one meter with one watt.

They max out at 121 db. It takes a doubling of watts to get 3 db gain

so to get 107 db at a meter you need 2 watts, 110 db= 4, 113=8, 116=16,

119=32 and 121=64.

Wo, there! Are you saying

that after feeding them 64 watts, the rest of the power goes somewhere

other than loudness? Doesn't sound right to me.

My old 90-watt/channel Marantz cranked all the way up was still not comparable to my Crown.

People new to this hobby sometimes think that more power is better,

this is not really the case and epically with Klipsch as the first

watt is the most important and needs to be really clean. Watts are not

the end all-be all. 120 db is right up there with a jet engine, much

higher and you are into the pain and rapid permanent damage to hearing

range.

Crown is not the end all- be all in amplifiers, they make some good equipment but so do many other makers.

If you "cranked up" your old Marantz over about 75% (of rotation of the volume knob) you undoubtedly

were clipping. Clipping is bad for all the equipment involved and

sounds bad as well. It is never a good idea to push equipment over it's

design limits and this goes for audio equipment also. If you need more

spl than a pair of Khorns can give you, add more of them, but don't push more

power into them, you will only damage them. If not sooner then later.

I am running Cornwalls in my 2 ch rig powered by a Sonic Frontiers 6550

amp rated at 45wpc. I listen, for the most part, to louder music (90-95

db) and due to the fact that the Cornwall II is 101 db/w efficient, I

doubt I am using more than .75w with peaks to 5w.

If you listen at more reasonable levels, say 80db then you probably are

not using more than .25w with peaks of 2w. These are just the facts.

You can disagree with them if you wish but they will remain true none

the less.

[Jeff Matthews]

Cal, sounds like science to me, but I am still lost because why do they make even a 65w amp? Why didn't you buy a 1-watt amp if you listen to .75 watts? That part makes no sense to me. I think something is being left out here - something very major....

[Jeff Matthews]

Crown is not the end all- be all in amplifiers, they make some good equipment but so do many other makers.

I am sure others make amps as good as the Crown, but for 20 years I've enjoyed the snot out of it, and it's been my end-all. I still maintain there a many people on this forum with good Heritage Klipsch that have really never heard them let go. I also would still maintain many would wet their pants when listening to them being driven by a good Crown. Definitely way above the consumer receiver quality. Duke, buddy, what say ye? Would they wet their pants? .....

[Marvel]

On the amp issue, I didn't mean dB reading. Much simpler. How high are you turning it. In the old days, our stuff had knobs with defined stop points. I wasn't thinking because I'll bet your newer HK does not. It turns continuously..... forever... and ever (why, I'll never know).

But certainly, it counts up to 100, or from from a negative to 0, or from a negative to positve number. In my question, for example, if the range on your volume was negative 50 to 50, then 0 would be half way, and 25 would be 3/4.

Because they use rotary encoders. Works similar to the way a mouse works on your computer (not the optical ones). We could get technical if you want. Notice how your mouse pointer only goes to the edge of the screen, even if you keep moving the mouse? Get the idea?

My amp goes to eleven. Actually, in audio, it is a log scale and not linear, so your example doesn't work.

[Jeff Matthews]

Thanks, Marvel. I get the design but do not get why they ever switched to designing them that way. Seems pointless to me. But probably the novelty of forever turning volume knobs was thought to be an attractive feature - I guess.

[Marvel]

meagain,

The mdf idea is a good one, but without other support, it is likely to vibrate/resonate, and may muddy the bass a little bit. There are lots of good ways to make false corners for those. I really like Chris' that he made for his Tigerwood Khorns, and you can see them in his avatar. Nice thing about that is you can always rotate the speakers some to modify the 'sweet spot'. They can make your horns work better under less than ideal conditions.

Bruce

[Marvel]

Jeff,

It means you don't have a carbon or wirewound potentiometer to get dirty and get noisy. It is all electronic. But the volume with the rotary encoder now makes discreet steps, instead of being continuously variable. If the steps are small enough, you can't tell the changes.

Bruce

[Daddy Dee]

M,

Congrats. Those Khorns are beauties. Hope you have years of enjoyment with them.

[PrestonTom]

I am going to reference a thread I started about false corners.

It provides a simple design for a false (half) corner that may be appropriate in your application. It is simpler than some of the others and also details how to use foam to get a tight seal. This is just one option. There are others that might be better....

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/516345/ShowPost.aspx

BTW, those are beautiful walnut cabinets

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Cal Blacksmith]

Cal, sounds like science to me, but I am

still lost because why do they make even a 65w amp? Why didn't

you buy a 1-watt amp if you listen to .75 watts? That part makes

no sense to me. I think something is being left out here -

something very major....

Question: Why didn't you buy a 1-watt amp if you listen to .75 watts?

Answer: Headroom. or extra power on tap to play the transient spikes cleanly and accurately.

If you notice, I said peaks to about 5w but I have turned things up

more than that. Also if you take notice, the power requirement is not

linear but logarithmic. Thus it takes a bunch of power in a hurry to

make any

volume gain after a certain point.

Another thing not factored in is that not all speakers are as efficient

as Klipsch. If you take a middle of the road speaker it is say 86 db/w

efficient this means that you start out using 1 w to get 86 db the next

step is 2w=89, 4w=92, 8w=95, 16w=98, 32w=101 (we are now at the point

where my Cornwalls start at 1w) 64w=104, 128w=107, 256w=110, 612w=113,

1224w=116, 2448w=119 , 4896w=122db or just 1 db above where your Khorns

volume is at when using just 64 watts of power. It all depends on how

efficient your speakers are at converting electricity to sound waves and

where you start along the line. Oh btw, those 86db/w speakers will have

the fire department coming long before you hit the volume your Khorns

reach.

[BiggerIsBetter]

In calculating the SPL, you also need to account for listening distance. The 121DB at 64 watts, is at 1 meter. Every doubling of the distance takes 6DB. At 4 meters, that 12DB down, or 109DB, still VERY, VERY loud.

[Cal Blacksmith]

BiB, you are quite right but I was not including it to avoid the extra confusion!

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Bruce,

Thanks for the compliment! I conceived the idea for the fasle corners (and the custom ALK's) a year before I built them. It was really satisfying to have the final product in front of me just as I had thought it out. This made the K Horns so much more livable.

Chris

[3dzapper]

BiB, you are quite right but I was not including it to avoid the extra confusion!

Don't forget to add back for multiple speakers and room gain.[]

Rick

[colterphoto1]

Thanks, Marvel. I get the design but do not get why they ever switched to designing them that way. Seems pointless to me. But probably the novelty of forever turning volume knobs was thought to be an attractive feature - I guess.

Jeff, if you had an older receiver with the 3/4 turn only and tried to control it with a remote, you'd know why. It was impossible to get the remote to send precisely the signal to get the volume you wanted. Always too high or too low. So the newer models are made more 'remote-friendly- by changing the 'gearing' on the manual knob, so the remote has better control over the volume pot.

Michale