"Eclipse" Cornerhorns? What the ....?

[sfogg]

"Maybe the patents aren't updated anymore, but if I was Fred, I'd look into legally renewing the Klipschorn patents and keeping the Khorn design plans exclusive property of Klipsch Audio Technologies "

Can't be done.

The whole idea behind a patent is that in exchange for a legal 'monopoly' (and legal protection) on your design/invention that after a specific amount of time that monopoly/protection expires and the design/invention is available for others to use.

The K'Horn patents are long expired. Legally there is nothing Klipsch can do about others using the design.

The Klipsch name and Klipschorn are both trademarked however. Trademarks last far longer then a patent (100 years maybe?). If someone was using a Klipsch trademark then Klipsch has legal rights to protect their trademark(s).

Shawn

[artto]

I emailed this guy last night basically calling him a fraud. I also said that I hoped his trademark and patent attorneys weren't as dumb as he is. This is his response:

Response from mwb157 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Item: ECLIPSE CORNERHORN LOUDSPEAKERS,CONCERT QUALITY SOUND!! (5870548998)

This message was sent while the listing was active.

mwb157 is the seller.

The following is a response to your email:

False reports about businesses or persons is considered by Federal Law an attack known in legal terms as defamation.
Since you think an attorney is in order, I suggest to you the following:

You sir, not I, need to consult with an attorney since my product which I've sold for years is most definitely not an infringement of another's design, nor patent.
Although my product may appear similar to others you have seen on the internet or elsewhere, Eclipse Cornerhorn Systems is registered in the State of Washington and further it is obvious you have not purchased my product, seen my product in person, nor conversed with me either verbally or in written form.
All of my buyers have been aware my speakers may look similar to some others, but the components, design of any other inventor has NOT been reproduced by Eclipse Loudspeaker Systems.
If you choose to continue to make further defamatory statements which most definitely harms my business, I suggest you consult with attorneys. The penalties regarding your most libelous statements via email are without evidence and can be proven so.
At this time it appears you feel you yourself have achieved an attorney's expertise on this subject matter.
In short, per an old and most respected saying Only a fool represent himself as his own attorney.
Should you continue to defame myself and business,you should learn the serious consequences you face when you have no evidence to support your unwarranted remarks.
Since all that you have stated is untrue and it is impossible for you to have evidence of your claims, you will I'm certain learn from legal counsel that you may face future legal difficulties yourself.
In addition, you even without consulting an attorney, can gain this information via the internet as hundreds of attorneys are listed as well as the U.S. Government Patent and Trademark office.
Signed,
Eclipsee Loudspeaker Systems,
MWB157. cc: sbg

Respond to this question in My Messages.

To which I respond:

[Let me get this correct. You copy someone elses design, protected by various U.S. & international patents, sell it at a profit, and I come along, and in a private email I call you an idiot and a fraud, and hope that your patent and trademark attorneys arent as dumb as you are, and you threaten me?

EXCUSE ME?

Whats the matter? Cant you sign your own name to your response? I guess thats about all that can be expected from someone who cant even sign-off on their email spelling their own company name correctly!

So you want to play hardball do you Mikey? OK. Please send me the name(s), address and phone number(s) of your trademark and patent attorneys so that I, or my attorney(s) may contact them.

BTW, you can see both my email and your emails posted on a thread at www.klipsch.com in the 2-channel Forum section entitled Re: "Eclipse" Cornerhorns? What the ....? Hopefully this will give your attorneys the firepower they will need to sue my *** for defamation.]

You know, I really dislike people like this. They are such conartists, theives basically. Dishonest. Disgusting. This ******* is lucky I'm in Chicago & he's in Seattle. (can't you all tell I just love shaking the trees, LOL)

[ZAKO]

Artto......Im afraid your mouth is writing a check your a$$ cant cash. I would suggest you back up on this one. Take a deep breath. He could do some damage to you . Defamation is no trivial matter. If he looses any business due to your slander you could get nailed. Even if you fight this to a stalemate it could cost you more than its worth. It would be cheaper to buy a new 60th anniversary Klipschorn & pass on his product. Of course this is a conservative suggestion. (cool it) . Your free to do what ever you want.

[Corvette6769]

"Eclipse Cornerhorn Systems is registered in the State of Washington"
"design of any other inventor has NOT been reproduced by Eclipse Loudspeaker Systems"

"Signed, Eclipsee Loudspeaker Systems,"

I own multiple businesses, and none of their names have changed since I founded them, especially during the course of one email. I find no record of "Eclipse Cornerhorn Systems" being registered anywhere, including the State of Washington.

Likewise, every business communication (including email) I ever send includes my identity and full contact information.

And above all, before I would make legal statements like MWB157 has, I always consult one of the attorneys I have on retainer who specializes in that area of law in the local jurisdiction to make sure my facts are consistent with the law.

[artto]

Maron.....get over it. I've been involved in several businesses over the last 30+ years, some of which included patents, trademarks and copyright law, and have even been published in the Wall Street Journal. I, like Corvette above, have more than one attorney on board that specialize in the areas needed as required. This Mike guy at Eclipse is way off base, and there's not a damn thing he's going to be able to do about it! He is a fraud, a poser. He doesn't even understand the basics of horn technology as indicated by his own description on his auction for his speakers, yet he "designed" them? I'd welcome any legal challenge from Mr. Mikey, or anyone else for that matter on my so-called "defamation" of his copy-cat products. He is required, even by Ebay regulations, to disclose that his product is some kind of "replica". He has not done this. He is a fraud. He is misleading and therefore dishonest. Go Ahead. SUE ME. I dare YOU.

BTW Mikey, I'm still waiting for the your attorney's contact names, numbers, etc.

[D-MAN]

You are clearly just being a pain in the a$$. No wonder the guy got PO'd. I would too. People like you threatening throwing unfounded lawsuits around at the drop of a hat have made this country what it has become. Well, I got news - you would lose, so have lots of money handy to pay for this guys lawyer, too.

1) patent infringement generally requires a patent, and there ain't one.

2) MANUFACTURING ANY UNPROTECTED DESIGN is perfectly LEGAL. Get over it.

3) This guy has done NOTHING WRONG, the Speakerlab "K" cited as historic precendent and PWK couldn't do anything about it. Suppose he is copying THAT design? Now what do you say?

4) the DBA (doing business as) title is not available for you to look up on the internet as far as I know, as a matter of fact NO NAMES can be "looked up" at all without a phone call at $6.00 per minute while a state employee looks it up for you over the phone (nice, huh?), and he probably is a LLC here in Washington state, that's what I'd be if I were him.

I think you need to calm down. Nothing is wrong here, and besides - who made you the Klipsch Police?

DM

[ZAKO]

Artto....This is not your fight......If the Klipsch company thought so, they would step in. You couldnt do any thing anyway. In fact useing this forum to defame another company or person could get you in trouble. Take some good advice and back off. Let cooler heads prevail.

[jt1stcav]

"Maybe the patents aren't updated anymore, but if I was Fred, I'd look into legally renewing the Klipschorn patents and keeping the Khorn design plans exclusive property of Klipsch Audio Technologies " Can't be done. The whole idea behind a patent is that in exchange for a legal 'monopoly' (and legal protection) on your design/invention that after a specific amount of time that monopoly/protection expires and the design/invention is available for others to use. The K'Horn patents are long expired. Legally there is nothing Klipsch can do about others using the design. The Klipsch name and Klipschorn are both trademarked however. Trademarks last far longer then a patent (100 years maybe?). If someone was using a Klipsch trademark then Klipsch has legal rights to protect their trademark(s). Shawn

I hear you, Shawn. I'm not familiar with patents and the law, and it seems this copycat builder may just be protected under our current legal system.

But I honestly don't blame artto for I also feel the same way. But it looks like the law may be in the copycat's favor this time. Guess there are no laws governing morals and good judgement these days. It just doesn't seem fair to me that guys like this can legally get away with basically ripping off another business's designs because they are no longer legally protected by patents or whatever. I assume that PWK was aware of Shinall and others who copied the basic design of the Klipschorn and then use their own parts (or purchase parts from others) on them, and then plaster their own names on them...just wonder how PWK felt about this whole copycat mess. Did it piss him off, or did it even bother the old man? Personally, I think this whole mess sucks! Why can't these guys just design their own cornerhorns and leave the Klipschorn design out of their lineup?

It's just not fair...but life's not fair either. Dammit![8o|]

[sfogg]

"Guess there are no laws governing morals and good judgement these days. It just doesn't seem fair to me that guys like this can legally get away with basically ripping off another business's designs because they are no longer legally protected by patents or whatever."

That is the deal you make when you get a patent. You get legal protection for X number of years then when the patent expires the 'invention' is out in the open for others to use. Trust me, anyone that has a patent(s) knows this. PWK applied for the patents..... so even if he didn't agree with it he certainly accepted the trade off by going through the process and getting the patents. And he applied for other patents long after the K'Horns had expired.

"It's just not fair..."

That is how the patent system works. You a get a legal monopoly on the design for X number of years. That is the tradeoff you make. The whole point of the patent system is to reward innovation but also allow competition after so many years. If patents never expired think of all the monopolies (and higher prices) we would have today.

"and it seems this copycat builder may just be protected under our current legal system."

If he violates a trademark then he wouldn't be. But as far as the K'Horns basic design anyone is free and clear to use it. They just can't call it anything Klipsch has trademarked.

Shawn

[meagain]

Not sure it matters much as I can't see how he could sell any at that outrageous price. Especially with seemingly total refusal to give any specs on the guts.

[SilverSport]

I bet if he really thought you were a buyer he would...best way to "get" that guy is not to buy anything from him...

Bill

[Painful Reality]

I think some of you should really get a life!

[3dzapper]

Jeff, I'd have much a better one if you Canucks would only keep your frigid air to yourself!!!! Brrr!1 It's too cold outside to shoot my bow.[]

Rick

[ZAKO]

Look at it this way......Rudy Diesel....Invented & pat. His famous engine. .look at the world today...Most large trucks, Ships, Subs, cars, use that design. The desendents of his family dont get a dime in royalties. That engine design is used all over the world.....The Khorn design will succome to that fate. They will be manufactured under many names. They could go on for centuries.......Diesel,,,,,Khorn,,,,,Hartsfield.

[Corvette6769]

If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again.

They're back.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5876340719

[oldbuckster]

I think some of you should really get a life!

Exactly!!! Did any of you put this much effort in Helping Katrina people who lost everything they had? Doubt it. The best and only thing you can do; DON'T BUY THEM!!

[Daddy Dee]

Interesting thread.

I think the guy has got a pair of Khorns he was trying to pass off as his own build (cloned Khorns). The picture, though poor quality, does show a type B Khorn with perfect factory built proportions. One seldom sees a clone built like that, except for Gary Shinall's work.

It would be my opinion that anyone with that much woodworking talent would have better pics to show.

edit: well I went out to see the new ebay listing. slightly different from the first, though, same old bad quality pic. I looked up the number on a reverse phone lookup.... it is Eclipse Loudspeaker Systems in Marysville, WA.

Not a scammer, but apparently some building clones. 3DZapper's post suggesting a speakerlab cornerhorn may well be right on.

[oldbuckster]

Interesting thread.

I think the guy has got a pair of Khorns he was trying to pass off as his own build (cloned Khorns). The picture, though poor quality, does show a type B Khorn with perfect factory built proportions. One seldom sees a clone built like that, except for Gary Shinall's work.

It would be my opinion that anyone with that much woodworking talent would have better pics to show.

They certainly look like Klipsch's, but on the same token, todays cars basically all look the same. You would think he could've made them with different wood so they don't look the same as K-horns. If you want Klipsch, buy Klipsch. I don't think clones are against the law, just look at muscle cars, 1/4 of them are clones, and they sell. Don't buy those speakers, that is the best thing to do.

[Daddy Dee]

Interesting thread.

I think the guy has got a pair of Khorns he was trying to pass off as his own build (cloned Khorns). The picture, though poor quality, does show a type B Khorn with perfect factory built proportions. One seldom sees a clone built like that, except for Gary Shinall's work.

It would be my opinion that anyone with that much woodworking talent would have better pics to show.

They certainly look like Klipsch's, but on the same token, todays cars basically all look the same. You would think he could've made them with different wood so they don't look the same as K-horns. If you want Klipsch, buy Klipsch. I don't think clones are against the law, just look at muscle cars, 1/4 of them are clones, and they sell. Don't buy those speakers, that is the best thing to do.

Yeh, that's what is so bogus about this listing.... For this kind of money, one could buy fabulous Khorns. This guy is trying to pass off something that is either a clone, or a rank and file Khorn as something worthy of a premium price. I believe that is what all this energy is about. It is a near insult to people who know genuine Klipsch and the Klipsch market.

Of course I should offer a disclaimer: I did in fact ride into town on the turnip truck... But not yesterday.

[oldbuckster]

Interesting thread.

I think the guy has got a pair of Khorns he was trying to pass off as his own build (cloned Khorns). The picture, though poor quality, does show a type B Khorn with perfect factory built proportions. One seldom sees a clone built like that, except for Gary Shinall's work.

It would be my opinion that anyone with that much woodworking talent would have better pics to show.

They certainly look like Klipsch's, but on the same token, todays cars basically all look the same. You would think he could've made them with different wood so they don't look the same as K-horns. If you want Klipsch, buy Klipsch. I don't think clones are against the law, just look at muscle cars, 1/4 of them are clones, and they sell. Don't buy those speakers, that is the best thing to do.

Yeh, that's what is so bogus about this listing.... For this kind of money, one could buy fabulous Khorns. This guy is trying to pass off something that is either a clone, or a rank and file Khorn as something worthy of a premium price. I believe that is what all this energy is about. It is a near insult to people who know genuine Klipsch and the Klipsch market.

Of course I should offer a disclaimer: I did in fact ride into town on the turnip truck... But not yesterday.

If you want Klipsch buy Klipsch; what is the problem? He is not fooling Klipsch owners, is he? Who wouldn't want to own a set of Khorns, real Khorns? They certainly look like Khorns, but are they Khorns? The best recourse is to NOT buy, or even bid on them. NO Sales puts him out of business, and problem solved.