CDs sound better than vinyl . . .

[DrWho]

"You can see the effects of this in the long scale by playing 3 different digital devices with the same medium for say 30 minutes...after 30 min it wouldn't be uncommon to see them being as much as 3 seconds off. Repeat the test a couple times and you'll notice that the difference changes too. So naturally there would have to be something happening at the very smallest scale to account for it."

WTF?

You mean a CD is accurate to 3 seconds in 30 minutes? That is 0.2% or the equivalent of running a 33.33.... rpm disk at 33.36.

When I bought the power supply for my TT it promised accuracy to 0.01 rpm - or 33.3433...

My TT is more accurate in timing that a CD player!

That I did not expect.

I see on another thread there are now belt drive CD players....tis a funny old world....and the other day a friend gave me a recordable CD done up to look like an old 45 rpm single.

At the current rate of progress CD's will be 12 inches, black, need flipping and entirely analogue by Christmas.

Then what will we agure about?

Well I was definetly quoting worst case scenarios and including all types of digital media. DAT, CD, DVD, Video Camera, etc etc...but it's all using the same clocking principals and cleans up with a master clock source.

[oldbuckster]

GET YOUR YA YA'S OUT ; the Rolling Stones

OOOPS, Wrong Thread....................EH!.........................

[Rivendell61]

So you are talking about the latency of the unit: the delay from input to output. 3 sec? Latency in converters is very low (c. 2ms) and the difference between brands is on the order of a millisecond. But I was not denying any utility for external clocking when using multiple units. I thought you were suggesting it might help a stand-alone player.

I was addressing a different subject:

My saying there was no timing error out of a DAC was to point out that the common idea that digital sampling introduces timing error to the output is wrong. So using that idea to rationalize higher sample rates is not helpful.

Here is a link on that subject:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/7308/8269/?SQ=a8e348fb56f27ca9826fae64977fc7a5

"Micro-timing in low sample rates"

A 4-5 page Forum discussion with some interesting plots posted. It takes a page or so to get going but there is some interesting stuff (if you are interested in this sort of thing!).

There is also some brief commentary on Apogee towards the end....

Mark

[DrWho]

So you are talking about the latency of the unit: the delay from input to output. 3 sec?

Take two CD players and put the same disc in each one. Press play and make sure they are sync'ed up. Then come back in half an hour and they won't be in sync anymore. Do the same thing with a master clock and they will stay in sync.

[colterphoto1]

Congratulations Michael! That's a nice TT! I am looking forward to the thread with pics you'll start when you get it. Is there an arm fitted to it? Cart? A 3009 or 30012 arm would be great... Ehhh, back topic we go.

I hardly buy cd's anymore, if possible vinyl for home use and cd for portable use. Tim.

It's just the basic Thorens model with a B&O cartridge for now. But that'll sure be a lot better than my Technics SL1700 with 30 year old Stanton 681EEE.

I think the 3009 would be the arm to aim for. Keep me in mind if one comes up for sale around you, will you?

Michael

[Mike Lindsey]

Congratulations Michael! That's a nice TT! I am looking forward to the thread with pics you'll start when you get it. Is there an arm fitted to it? Cart? A 3009 or 30012 arm would be great... Ehhh, back topic we go.

I hardly buy cd's anymore, if possible vinyl for home use and cd for portable use. Tim.

It's just the basic Thorens model with a B&O cartridge for now. But that'll sure be a lot better than my Technics SL1700 with 30 year old Stanton 681EEE.

I think the 3009 would be the arm to aim for. Keep me in mind if one comes up for sale around you, will you?

Michael

Nothing basic about this model. It's one of the best tables that Thorens has ever manufactured. Talk to Scott0527 and I'm sure he will be glad to educate you on what you will have in your posession.

Mike

PS: I agree with Timmi, tho, and that is to find yourself a nice SME 3009 when you have the funds.

[MBM135]

Except for a handful of folks like us... CD sales are way down in the US (about 25% over the last couple years). In 5-10 years or so, someone may post: "I sure miss CDs." It seems like the music industry's big push is not on sound quality but how many songs can be crammed onto an iPod and how many devices can they make to allow you to play your iPod in your car or on some horrible sounding, boombox-like device the size of a toaster. Even Klipsch is marketing such a device. None of these things sound great. XM sounds like crap and so does Sirius. Bose's sales of their Wave smoke and mirrors $500 clock radios are at an all time high.

Most people would rather have 10,000 songs on their MP3 player than a decent amp, CDP, set of speakers and 100 great CDs--much less a high-end TT. Earbuds and file servers will generate more revenue than decent speakers. Yeah, vinyl has it's place and so do CDs, but I fear the industry will soon isolate those of us who enjoy great sound into an even thinner margin. It will not be long and we will all be collecting CDs like some of us do vinyl since the only other source will be a music download off iTunes.

[oldbuckster]

Except for a handful of folks like us... CD sales are way down in the US (about 25% over the last couple years). In 5-10 years or so, someone may post: "I sure miss CDs." It seems like the music industry's big push is not on sound quality but how many songs can be crammed onto an iPod and how many devices can they make to allow you to play your iPod in your car or on some horrible sounding, boombox-like device the size of a toaster. Even Klipsch is marketing such a device. None of these things sound great. XM sounds like crap and so does Sirius. Bose's sales of their Wave smoke and mirrors $500 clock radios are at an all time high.

Most people would rather have 10,000 songs on their MP3 player than a decent amp, CDP, set of speakers and 100 great CDs--much less a high-end TT. Earbuds and file servers will generate more revenue than decent speakers. Yeah, vinyl has it's place and so do CDs, but I fear the industry will soon isolate those of us who enjoy great sound into an even thinner margin. It will not be long and we will all be collecting CDs like some of us do vinyl since the only other source will be a music download off iTunes.

CD sales being down has alot to do with the fact that old farts like me have caught up our collections, when we first switched over to the CD format your buying alot of old favorite records now on CD. When you get your collection up to where you want it you slow down buying CD's. I'm not alone, think about it, you buy more at first to build up your collection, then you back off. Another point is price, a CD that is not on sale is pretty expensive, and with other prices climbing, maybe you have to wait on the new CD.

MP3 have also hurt, but I really don't like the sound of MP3. I think they have a place, and for many they are a great idea, alot of musical storage, you can take your collection with you, small unit with decent sound, good idea, just not for me..........

[Def Leper]

Those who disagree, and I've said this time and time again, have never heard a really good TT in action.

I certainly disagree. I've heard quite a few "high end" turntables and cartridges in action, all plugged into very expensive systems. One stands out as being one of the best systems I've ever heard, but that has more to do with a professionally designed room treatment than the system itself.

I've heard several that didn't sound any better than my $400 turntable/cartride, despite costing as much as a new car, and certainly didn't sound better than CD's. To be fair, I've also heard a few CD players that cost as much as a car and didn't sound any better than the CD player I bought for $160 used.

In all cases. the owners of these systems say basically the same thing that you say, and it seems to revolve more around a very large investment in equipment than any real improvement in sound.

[jazman]

Those who disagree, and I've said this time and time again, have never heard a really good TT in action.

I certainly disagree. I've heard quite a few "high end" turntables and cartridges in action, all plugged into very expensive systems. One stands out as being one of the best systems I've ever heard, but that has more to do with a professionally designed room treatment than the system itself.

I've heard several that didn't sound any better than my $400 turntable/cartride, despite costing as much as a new car, and certainly didn't sound better than CD's. To be fair, I've also heard a few CD players that cost as much as a car and didn't sound any better than the CD player I bought for $160 used.

In all cases. the owners of these systems say basically the same thing that you say, and it seems to revolve more around a very large investment in equipment than any real improvement in sound.

Without a doubt......................., you are definitely "Def"!

Get yourself a Blose system.

Klipsch out.

[edwinr]

Those who disagree, and I've said this time and time again, have never heard a really good TT in action.

I certainly disagree. I've heard quite a few "high end" turntables and cartridges in action, all plugged into very expensive systems. One stands out as being one of the best systems I've ever heard, but that has more to do with a professionally designed room treatment than the system itself.

I've heard several that didn't sound any better than my $400 turntable/cartride, despite costing as much as a new car, and certainly didn't sound better than CD's. To be fair, I've also heard a few CD players that cost as much as a car and didn't sound any better than the CD player I bought for $160 used.

In all cases. the owners of these systems say basically the same thing that you say, and it seems to revolve more around a very large investment in equipment than any real improvement in sound.

Without a doubt......................., you are definitely "Def"!

Get yourself a Blose system.

Klipsch out.

You really are rude, aren't you, jazman?

The sad thing is... I kind of agree with you. If you spend big on your source, don't expect your middling level system to reveal the improvements wrought by better engineering and the superior components found on most high end CD players and turntables. A really well engineered turntable probably won't reveal how good it is until the amplifier and speakers can keep up.

Unless of course you resort to a DSP where you can dial in whatever sound you like.

[skonopa]

Except for a handful of folks like us... CD sales are way down in the US (about 25% over the last couple years). In 5-10 years or so, someone may post: "I sure miss CDs." It seems like the music industry's big push is not on sound quality but how many songs can be crammed onto an iPod and how many devices can they make to allow you to play your iPod in your car or on some horrible sounding, boombox-like device the size of a toaster. Even Klipsch is marketing such a device. None of these things sound great. XM sounds like crap and so does Sirius. Bose's sales of their Wave smoke and mirrors $500 clock radios are at an all time high.

Most people would rather have 10,000 songs on their MP3 player than a decent amp, CDP, set of speakers and 100 great CDs--much less a high-end TT. Earbuds and file servers will generate more revenue than decent speakers. Yeah, vinyl has it's place and so do CDs, but I fear the industry will soon isolate those of us who enjoy great sound into an even thinner margin. It will not be long and we will all be collecting CDs like some of us do vinyl since the only other source will be a music download off iTunes.

I'll fully admit that I am one of those ones that also have the "10,000 songs crammed in an iPod" myself, but I do it purely for the convience. I am currently listening to my iPod through a set of the little Tivoli Audio Henry Kloss Model Two speakers, which certainly cost less than the Blose radio (and, in my opinion, sounds much better as well). But than again, do I really need much else in my office? It is not like I cannot crank it up that loud in the first place. Also, I do like to listen to my iPod in the car as well. When driving, I am concentrating on the driving itself and not the music, so again, do I really need the highest of hi-fidelity in that environment, although I do have a very nice after-market car audio system installed in my car. In this case convience overrides ultimate fidelity.

But in the end I do agree, as on my home system, I much prefer listening to the actual CD instead of an MP3 whenever possible, although I do have a music server from which I stream music into my home system through a Roko SoundBridge M1000 device. To be honost, at lossless, or even high bit rate (all my MP3s are encoded at 320kbps), it actually does sound quite good.

I wonder if the "album" as we know it will become extinct, with all this push of digital downloads and "per-song" pricing. It may be that these bands/artists will not even bother putting out entire albums.

Back to the topic at hand. I personally prefer the sound and convenience of the CD myself. I like the very clean, clear sound that it produces. On a good recording the dynamics and clarity is just stunning on my humble little RF-7/B&K setup. Now, that does not mean that I think vinyl sounds bad. In fact, I very much enjoyed listening to good vinyl setups, with good recordings, such as that of GaryMD's. I do have a pretty cheap, but decent, turntable myself courtesy of Thebes. I still need to figure out how to incorporate it into my current setup. In the end, I still have plans to eventually get a seperate two-channel setup, in which I do want to also include a decent turntable along with CD playback. There is definitly that nostalgia and "romance" of spinning vinyl, and on good setups, does sound very nice.

[DrWho]

I wonder if the "album" as we know it will become extinct, with all this push of digital downloads and "per-song" pricing. It may be that these bands/artists will not even bother putting out entire albums.

As much as I like albums, I think this would be a strong step forward in the music industry as it would vastly reduce the number of crap songs made for the sole purpose of filling the album. But I'm sure the more artistic types will continue the album approach - hey, maybe it'll move back into songs with movements (like the old classical stuff).

[skonopa]

I wonder if the "album" as we know it will become extinct, with all this push of digital downloads and "per-song" pricing. It may be that these bands/artists will not even bother putting out entire albums.

As much as I like albums, I think this would be a strong step forward in the music industry as it would vastly reduce the number of crap songs made for the sole purpose of filling the album. But I'm sure the more artistic types will continue the album approach - hey, maybe it'll move back into songs with movements (like the old classical stuff).

I do have to agree with you on this point. It seems often (at least in the mainstream) that there are plenty of albums with the one or two good tracks (often the ones you hear on the radio), but the rest is just garbage. Fortunatly, I've not really encountered that once I got outside of the typical mainstream. Pretty sweet that I can put in Secret Sphere's Scent of Human Desire, and enjoy every song on there, although I think the track "Virgin Street 69" is a bit weak (come-on, putting in sounds of a woman having orgasms? That is so lame! I thought that band had more class than that. Leave that crap up to the nu-metal and "hair metal" bands). Still, an album with 10 good tracks and one pretty decent track, instead of an album with 2 good tracks and 9 others of complete garbage. No wonder most of my music as of late have been coming from smaller, independent labels and/or bands.

As with the songs with movement's, It seems that I've been seeing a bit of that in some recent cases. Have you listened to the latest "Aryeon" album, Human Equation? Each of the tracks are divided up in "days", which are more like "movements" than actual seperate songs. As you said, most likely, the artistic types will stick to albums, but I am willing to bet as a way to tell a story, as many of these bands that I've been listening to have done (case in point - Rhapsody's Symphony of Enchanted Lands albums, and of course, the Aryeon albums).

[woodsman]

I'd take 8-track anyday.

[oldbuckster]

Cassettes are cool, too...................EH....................Auto reverse is even better..................

[pauln]

Back to the topic...

Was wondering just today what influence some of the differences between phono and digital might actually have on the sound.

Channel separation, for example; in a good cartrige this might be greater than 20dB overall, 25dB in the midrange. I don't have CDs, so what is the channel separation with them (is it potentially perfect?) What is the sound of less than perfect channel separation, or is this something that gets confounded by the mixing/mastering process? If there is a distinct difference, does it disappear with single speaker mono?

Stylus intermodulation; this is usually less than 1%. I don't suppose CDs have this do they? What does this sound like, or is this masked by the greater intermodulation of the speakers?

Differrence in the bandwidth limit; this I think could make a difference. As mentioned in an earlier post, the upper frequency limit of hearing is determined by testing with sin waves, but there may be high frequency sounds that we don't hear as tones or sounds so much as they may be providing spatial information about the immediate source and distance of sounds. I have read of testing that leads one to conclude that the leading edge of sounds is processed and perceived somewhat differently than the rest of the sound. The fast first part of the sound is checked for where it is and how close before the tone, pitch, and other characteristics are sensed - this is adaptive for survival, somewhat like a reflex that initiates before you even feel what set off the reflex. Perhaps a good part of the content of this information is derived from the frequencies a bit above what the CDs can pass, and a bit above what general hearing tests would suppose that you could 'hear'.

Non-linearity of the cuttinghead (and may so too the stylus on playback); this too would seem to be something that the CDs in principle should not be passing through into the signal, or are there non-linearities in the digital to analog converters? If so, is it the same kind, and what do they sound like?

Phase maintenance between the channels; I suppose this is perfect for CDs, but one of the problems with the difference between how the cuttinghead (a contact line knife edge) cuts the groove and how a stylus that is conical tracks the groove is that the imaginary line from the cuttinghead edges between the right and left points of contact in the groove stays perpendicular to the orientation of the groove and it's walls, whereas a conical (and even an eliptical) stylus makes an error in the phase relationship between the two channels. The only times in the groove's wiggle that the imaginary line between the right and left contact points of a conical stylus is perpendicular to the groove orientation is at the extreme inner and outer edges of the groove's wiggles. When the groove is passing from on e extreme to the other (viewed sideways they would look like local maxima and minima on a graph), one channel will be in advance of the other, both alternating depending on the direction of travel. Because the cuttinghead stays perpendicular, the groove is wider at the extreme excursions and narrow when traveling between them - this is the actual distance between the groove walls independent of orientation to the cutterhead or the record itself. It you hold two pencils together to simulate the cutter head and draw a groove you will see that the places where the groove turns makes a wider gap. Since the stylus does not 'know' what the intended angle of the imaginary line was supposed to be, it picks up the left and right channels from the closest parts of the groove with which it is in contact. If you run your finger along the groove you drew, you will realize that the phase of the right and left channels are swinging back and forth with every wiggle of the vinyl. This is why modern styli went to eliptical to reduce this effect, and why many highend styli attempt to utilize a line contact diamond to imitate the cutterhead and mimic the original correct geometry. I have a line contact stylus as well as some eliptical ones and I do hear a difference, but I can not claim it is this presence or absence of phase modulation that makes the difference.

Pauln

[SET12]

Those who disagree, and I've said this time and time again, have never heard a really good TT in action.

I certainly disagree. I've heard quite a few "high end" turntables and cartridges in action, all plugged into very expensive systems. One stands out as being one of the best systems I've ever heard, but that has more to do with a professionally designed room treatment than the system itself.

I've heard several that didn't sound any better than my $400 turntable/cartride, despite costing as much as a new car, and certainly didn't sound better than CD's. To be fair, I've also heard a few CD players that cost as much as a car and didn't sound any better than the CD player I bought for $160 used.

In all cases. the owners of these systems say basically the same thing that you say, and it seems to revolve more around a very large investment in equipment than any real improvement in sound.

Without a doubt......................., you are definitely "Def"!

Get yourself a Blose system.

Klipsch out.

You really are rude, aren't you, jazman?

The sad thing is... I kind of agree with you. If you spend big on your source, don't expect your middling level system to reveal the improvements wrought by better engineering and the superior components found on most high end CD players and turntables. A really well engineered turntable probably won't reveal how good it is until the amplifier and speakers can keep up.

Unless of course you resort to a DSP where you can dial in whatever sound you like.

This Thread has been excellant on all fronts! I have enjoyed it very much and I believe one must compare apples to apples such as a 500$ CD player to 500$ LP rig and so on!

And to hear the most to be had one should have the rest of the system in some what proportion.

I can say that I certainly understand the pains of the care of an LP based system and yet appreaciate the ease of CD based one! I have enjoyed both! But only recent yrs have I enjoyed much CD, due to my CD source direct to SET amp set up.

I am a DIYer because of the expense of it based on my income and the sheer pleasure of designing and building my own! I have had fortune of some pretty impressive results based on my local peer's listening sessions some of who are recording engineers and musicans.

I have not tried to do an all out assult on a DAC project, but I will! but for now based on experiances with Digital and getting down to the brass tax I have yet to hear a Digital Player compete with this giant and if you take a good look you might say that this thing is real over kill with its supply and I wondered that to! but after taking 1/2 of it away and listening to it I was a little shocked that it was audiable.

The only commercialy available phono stage in this ones power supply class is the Aesthetix IO a two box design like mine with a 900 joule power supply and I might add that some of the IO's are sold with a second Supply surpassing the energy of my own! not many people in the world have such giants In my opinion my own is vastly more transparent than the IO has been reviewed as being and I can understand why which I won't go into detail here!

But when it comes to sheer dynamics I haven't heard any Digital product come close to this Anaolog Giant!

[Def Leper]

Without a doubt......................., you are definitely "Def"!

Get yourself a Blose system.

Klipsch out.

Gosh, what an unintelligent response. You forgot to tell us how much you've sunk into your electronic monstrosity.

[jazman]

Without a doubt......................., you are definitely "Def"!

Get yourself a Blose system.

Klipsch out.

Gosh, what an unintelligent response. You forgot to tell us how much you've sunk into your electronic monstrosity.

Def,

When I read remarks like yours, "I certainly disagree. I've heard quite a few "high end" turntables and cartridges in action, all plugged into very expensive systems. One stands out as being one of the best systems I've ever heard, but that has more to do with a professionally designed room treatment than the system itself.

I've heard several that didn't sound any better than my $400 turntable/cartride, despite costing as much as a new car, and certainly didn't sound better than CD's. To be fair, I've also heard a few CD players that cost as much as a car and didn't sound any better than the CD player I bought for $160 used. "

to me are indications of either how poorly you hear, or/and indications of how little experience you have with vinyl and quality audio systems.

Sorry Def, there is no way to sugar coat my response. To get an intelligent response, requires something intelligent to respond to.

Klipsch out.