CDs sound better than vinyl . . .

[maxg]

In my experience, subwoofer guys are not vinyl guys.

I am an exception then huh...

Actually there is a very good reason for that observation Paul - it can be EXTREMELY difficult to isolate a TT from a pounding sub - sometimes impossible.

Some subs can get very close to the resonant frequency of the arm/ cartridge combo and then things can really start to dance. I am just plain lucky in that my setup (without any special stands) appears to be immune to the sub-woofer.

Having said that it should be noted that my sub only actually goes down to around 25 Hz. If it were one that plumbed the depths I guess I could make even my arm dance.

[DrWho]

In my experience, subwoofer guys are not vinyl guys.

I think more fundamentally it comes down to the type of music listened to. Either it requires a sub or it doesn't. That's how I can justify the $20 walkman comment; certain types of music couldn't exist on LP.

[oldbuckster]

This is a very old and worn subject; I don't think you will ever get a vinyl guy to admit CD's are better, nor will you get a CD guy to admit vinyl is better. It's going to be a stand off no matter what way you go. My only point here would be to ask, What is the price you pay to listen to clean, tic and pop free vinyl? You are not listening to $200. turntables, with $100. cartridges that the average guy would use. You must use some kind of device to filter out noise, and something to hold you records flat. There is a price for silence, what is it?

Does it really matter that much what form of music you listen to? Equipment seems to be the main point on this forum, that's too bad, Music has been around long before Radio, Tapes, Records, CD's, DvD's. Without the music, what is the point of having any equipment, there would be no what's better Vinyl or CD's. Bottom Line, enjoy the MUSIC, how you listen, or what you play it on doesn't matter..........................

[oldbuckster]

"You must use some kind of device to filter out noise, and something to hold you records flat. There is a price for silence, what is it?" ====================== I've never found that record noise within reason reduced the sense of liveliness at all. I've never used anything to filter this noise. In fact, I'd say "silence" is so low on my priority list of what I am listening for that it's not an interesting issue at all. Musical concerts are quite noisy, but I don't pay any attention to that either. I suppose I could stand up and keep "shsssssshing" people? It's interesting that a lot of people who don't like records bring up "ticks and pops" all the time, and yet people who like records rarely mention it? md

It's not a matter of not liking records, I've owned hundreds of them, that's all we had in the 60's and early 70's, or are you young enough that you don't remember that era, Radio, records, and the new fangled 8 tracks, that was it for musical enjoyment. Tics and pops, and turntable rumble take away from the music, just one man's opinion.....................this is a subject that will never end..............

[Parrot]

It's a bit of a pity that when they finalized the CD standard they didn't give it just a bit more thought - they could have possibly created a new high fidelity standard too.

That is now the SACD, which is selling extremely poorly. Just goes to show that the CD was/is good enough for 99.9999% of people.

[Colin]

I am filling a 80GB music drive, mostly with jazz CDS from the library. Most are in good quality, though the cases are often shot.

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My vinyl horse left when the second Sony CD chugged up the lane. (I was the first I know to buy a CD my how people change.) How do you easily rip an LP to a hard drive?

I go almost weekly, because I order my books online and then pick-them up. Thank goodness nobody reads in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Tampa. The library system (25!) delivered Thomas Wolfes best seller I am Charlotte Simons, for example, in a week. Oddly, with the neighbor complaining about my ACI sub rumbling her walls at night, I am doing less jazz listening and book reading (read about one a week last year).

[kaiser SET say]

I just have to jump in here because I love flames especially when there being lobbed at me[]

Music is and always will be from the analog world to sound and be at it's finest, don't get me wrong as I have a wonderful EAD Transport/DAC setup but rearranging bits is not music to me and never will be it's modern sound reproduction plain and simple. Your own ears and brain work in analog where real music eminates from and as long as my old legs will move me to and fro my table I will continue to spin vinyl till I drop (sorry Rob[]) but I don't care if spinning is a pain in your arse it's a pain in my ear to constantly hear the dead lifelessness of digital be it Redbook or SACD I can tell when I'm hearing bits being read[]

Heck, if I had a quarter for everyone who told me that can't be a record I'm listening too I would own a rig as nice as Max's by now[]

Gotta run home and listen to some Sid Barrett on CD unfortunately but I'm sure the Spaten Optimator is going to help[]

Hope to catch some good flames tomorrow[:^)]

[oldbuckster]

Kaiser if the Rob comment was meant for me, where in those last two post did I say spinning vinyl was a pain in my arse? Still no one has answered with a price, How much does it cost to hear what your hearing with no noise?

[Mike Lindsey]

Kaiser if the Rob comment was meant for me, where in those last two post did I say spinning vinyl was a pain in my arse? Still no one has answered with a price, How much does it cost to hear what your hearing with no noise?

I have over 600 albums and don't know of a single one that is warped. Do some have clicks and pops? Yes they do. Does it bother me? Not much, unless it is a really problem album. For the most part I only hear some slight noise in the quietest passages. Otherwise, all I hear is bliss. []

It surprises me greatly when I hear of audiophiles (or people who love high quality music) who grew up in the vinyl era that now prefer the medium of CD. For most of us, we have owned and experienced both and much prefer the sound of vinyl. This is no fluke. I can only think that those that do not prefer it did not take real good care of their collection or their table/cart. Before my latest table, I owned a couple of moderately priced Dual tables with Shure cartridges and still preferred the sound of vinyl.

To be honest, I can't remember the last CD I played in my system. It's been since the party I hosted in May I think. Don't get me wrong, I still like my CD's, but if I had a choice to keep only one medium I know the little discs would be for sale here first. []

Mike

[jacksonbart]

its all about enjoying the music on our beautiful Klipsch speakers regardless of the medium you choose to use. Some of us just don't want to listen alone, so they invite some friends over for company.

[cjgeraci]

"I can only think that those that do not prefer it did not take real good care of their collection or their table/cart."

I think Mike's answer is a pretty good start.

Ahhh, the old debate of vinyl vs. CD. I can hear what you are saying Oldbuckster - frankly after being away from vinyl for many years, I expected to be disappointed with the undue "noise" associated with playback. No fancy turntable clamp or filter needed here - and I have not spent much getting back into it.

Having jumped back into the fray with a rebuilt vintage Thorens table (acquired for about $250), digging out my old Luxman receiver and using only its phono stage (similar receivers going on ebay for $70-100), and running everything into my Peach tube pre (which I use for CDs anyway), I was shocked at how little unwarranted noise I heard - at all volumes. Maybe it was that the few records I kept and did not give away - were still in fantastic shape. And I have been lucky enough to stumble across some vinyl in nice shape since then. Or maybe as some have mentioned, I really do not notice the unwelcomed sounds all that much - but there sure is less unwarranted noise than I remembered way back when. So, I think you can get surprisingly good sound out of a vinyl rig for not much dough.........

On the other hand, I still love my CDs so long as they are played on a tubed CDP and with a tube pre. Have to disagree with your "lifeless" comment though, Mark. You really need to hear CDs on my system (through your "Peach").

Vinyl and CDs each have their own distinct sound, and I am one of those who loves the sound of both on my system.

Carl.

P.S. Max - I also use a sub with vinyl. My sub has an adjustable passive filter (16 to 25hz), and I usually switch the cutoff to 25 when doing so.

[jdm56]

I always cleaned and anti-stat'd LP's before each play but still had noise issues. I think some people are just more sensitive to noise. Not that their hearing is any different from vinyl lovers, but that they just can't tune it out as well. As for sounding dead and lifeless, yes, some CD's do sound that way, but some sound fantastic, so how can you hang the whole medium with the dead-and-lifeless tag? Obviously (to me[]), the CD is the more transparent of the two, while vinyl tends to overlay it's own colorations and distortions onto the recorded sound. It's just that many people prefer those colorations and distortions. I'll admit though, that there could be some areas that are yet unmeasurable that the old LP may actually surpass the CD. And maybe those will be discovered eventually. But I have not seen ANY measurable area of performance other than extreme HF where any vinyl medium can even compare to CD. And the extreme highs that a good cartridge can recover from mint vinyl are inaudible to most folks over 40 anyway.

I have done a few CD/LP comparisons (definitely non-scientific!) and to be honest, as long as the music masked the background noise, the main difference I heard was cleaner and stronger bass from CD and brighter treble(4-10kHz). This was back in the early days of CD; about 1984 or so, when I got my first CD player, a $450 Sony CDP-200. It's whatever floats yer own particular boat as far as I'm concerned, but as for me, I quit buying albums in '84, and am now closing in on my 2000th CD.

[DrWho]

Music is and always will be from the

analog world to sound and be at it's finest, don't get me wrong as I

have a wonderful EAD Transport/DAC setup but rearranging bits is not

music to me and never will be it's modern sound reproduction plain and

simple. Your own ears and brain work in analog where real music

eminates from and as long as my old legs will move me to and fro my

table I will continue to spin vinyl till I drop (sorry Rob[]) but I

don't care if spinning is a pain in your arse it's a pain in my ear to

constantly hear the dead lifelessness of digital be it Redbook or SACD

I can tell when I'm hearing bits being read[]

You do realize there is a serious million dollar reward for anyone that

can actually distinguish the sound of a digital conversion inline with

the audio path. Heck, the dude will probably even do it in your own

home. Plenty of "golden ears" have taken the challenge and there has

yet to be one to succeed. I would very much like to see someone beat

the challenge as it would totally change my perspective on things (and

win that person a million dollars).

I would put 24 bit 192kHz digital right up there with analog reel to

reel - which everyone would agree sounds better than vinyl. Sadly the

reel to reel is no longer in the studio or I would totally offer to

demonstrate the difference. Editing the sound in the digital domain is

a totally different issue and there are mathematical explanations for

why it will sound bad, but digital purely used as a medium is awesome

- and even moreso when you consider that it is lossless. No worries

about losing that flux on the tape and messing about with grand masters

and masters...worrying about when to switch to the next master.

All that said, the music that ends up on vinyl has no doubt been mixed

down in a very different way than it would for a CD. Make something

sound great on a CD and then feed that same mix to the LP and the LP

will sound like crap. Mix for the LP and the CD will sound like crap.

Have a seperate mix for the CD and LP, but now the music is completely

different and it's no longer apples to apples.

The same concept can be applied to home systems. All you vinyl lovers

tweak the crap out of your system for that one perfect sound that

you're looking for. Would you actually expect any other medium to sound

its best in that same setup? Try bringing the reel to reel master tape

(since 'it's gotta be analog') into your home setup - I can guarantee

that it will sound like crap.

If I may make an observation...I see a lot of vinyl guys running around

changing out every part of their turntables - gotta have the best

needle, the best arm, the best cartridge, the best preamp, etc

etc...and then gotta baby the records and do this and do that... The

point being that the sound is constantly changing. And then take into

account that every playing of the vinyl adds to the wear and tear...how

many times can you play a record before the change in sound is audible?

I'm yet to get an answer to that one []

But ultimately, it all comes down to the song you're listening to.

Whether it be AM radio, the best CD rig, or the best LP rig, it's still

the same bloody song. Either you enjoy it or you don't. (though

following that logic to its conclusion implies that we all go out and

get HTIB's...)

[Rivendell61]

I don't know how to do quote things on this forum....

Mdeneen--mentioned CDs having a "deadly lifeless sound where vinyl sounds lifelike and lively". Intereresting considering the notable potential dynamic range of CDs (manifested in some of my classical CDs with +50dB peak to peak)--could this be simply reflecting well known mastering issues in popular music?

OTOH, I was reading a Microsoft PP presentation last night (what exciting evenings I have) on the differentiation between 'Intensity' (SPL) and 'loudness', and an example of vinyl was mentioned: "LP distortion grows with level. That means that as level grows, the signal bandwidth (including distortion) increases. --This means that an increase in intensity is over-represented by the increase in loudness. * This can create an illusion of 'More dynamic range'* ". Perhaps your 'lively' is a 'non-linearity'.....?

jdm56--good post but one point:....wider bandwidth is one of the easiest to discard of possible reasons for the the perceived vinyl advantage (for several reasons). Consider one: people on this very forum have extolled the sonics of 1950's and 60's era vinyl.

DrWho--I see a 192kHz mention.....uh oh. Speed kills. Faster is not always better and while audiophiles love the idea of 'faster', all converters will create more signal damage at 192 than at 88/96. It is a sales tool only (as is 'resolution', 'hi-rez', etc).

Mark

[edwinr]

How much did the CEC cost?

I believe it costs around $1600 in the U.S. and in Australia about $2500. I paid closer to the U.S. price. Here's a pic.

[garymd]

Music is and always will be from the analog world to sound and be at it's finest, don't get me wrong as I have a wonderful EAD Transport/DAC setup but rearranging bits is not music to me and never will be it's modern sound reproduction plain and simple. Your own ears and brain work in analog where real music eminates from and as long as my old legs will move me to and fro my table I will continue to spin vinyl till I drop (sorry Rob[]) but I don't care if spinning is a pain in your arse it's a pain in my ear to constantly hear the dead lifelessness of digital be it Redbook or SACD I can tell when I'm hearing bits being read[]

You do realize there is a serious million dollar reward for anyone that can actually distinguish the sound of a digital conversion inline with the audio path. Heck, the dude will probably even do it in your own home. Plenty of "golden ears" have taken the challenge and there has yet to be one to succeed. I would very much like to see someone beat the challenge as it would totally change my perspective on things (and win that person a million dollars).

I would put 24 bit 192kHz digital right up there with analog reel to reel - which everyone would agree sounds better than vinyl. Sadly the reel to reel is no longer in the studio or I would totally offer to demonstrate the difference. Editing the sound in the digital domain is a totally different issue and there are mathematical explanations for why it will sound bad, but digital purely used as a medium is awesome - and even moreso when you consider that it is lossless. No worries about losing that flux on the tape and messing about with grand masters and masters...worrying about when to switch to the next master.

All that said, the music that ends up on vinyl has no doubt been mixed down in a very different way than it would for a CD. Make something sound great on a CD and then feed that same mix to the LP and the LP will sound like crap. Mix for the LP and the CD will sound like crap. Have a seperate mix for the CD and LP, but now the music is completely different and it's no longer apples to apples.

The same concept can be applied to home systems. All you vinyl lovers tweak the crap out of your system for that one perfect sound that you're looking for. Would you actually expect any other medium to sound its best in that same setup? Try bringing the reel to reel master tape (since 'it's gotta be analog') into your home setup - I can guarantee that it will sound like crap.

If I may make an observation...I see a lot of vinyl guys running around changing out every part of their turntables - gotta have the best needle, the best arm, the best cartridge, the best preamp, etc etc...and then gotta baby the records and do this and do that... The point being that the sound is constantly changing. And then take into account that every playing of the vinyl adds to the wear and tear...how many times can you play a record before the change in sound is audible? I'm yet to get an answer to that one []

But ultimately, it all comes down to the song you're listening to. Whether it be AM radio, the best CD rig, or the best LP rig, it's still the same bloody song. Either you enjoy it or you don't. (though following that logic to its conclusion implies that we all go out and get HTIB's...)

Once again coming from someone who's yet to hear a decent vinyl setup.

Until you do, please put a sock in it. It's getting old.

[NOSValves]

Music is and always will be from the analog world to sound and be at it's finest, don't get me wrong as I have a wonderful EAD Transport/DAC setup but rearranging bits is not music to me and never will be it's modern sound reproduction plain and simple. Your own ears and brain work in analog where real music eminates from and as long as my old legs will move me to and fro my table I will continue to spin vinyl till I drop (sorry Rob[]) but I don't care if spinning is a pain in your arse it's a pain in my ear to constantly hear the dead lifelessness of digital be it Redbook or SACD I can tell when I'm hearing bits being read[]

You do realize there is a serious million dollar reward for anyone that can actually distinguish the sound of a digital conversion inline with the audio path. Heck, the dude will probably even do it in your own home. Plenty of "golden ears" have taken the challenge and there has yet to be one to succeed. I would very much like to see someone beat the challenge as it would totally change my perspective on things (and win that person a million dollars).

I would put 24 bit 192kHz digital right up there with analog reel to reel - which everyone would agree sounds better than vinyl. Sadly the reel to reel is no longer in the studio or I would totally offer to demonstrate the difference. Editing the sound in the digital domain is a totally different issue and there are mathematical explanations for why it will sound bad, but digital purely used as a medium is awesome - and even moreso when you consider that it is lossless. No worries about losing that flux on the tape and messing about with grand masters and masters...worrying about when to switch to the next master.

All that said, the music that ends up on vinyl has no doubt been mixed down in a very different way than it would for a CD. Make something sound great on a CD and then feed that same mix to the LP and the LP will sound like crap. Mix for the LP and the CD will sound like crap. Have a seperate mix for the CD and LP, but now the music is completely different and it's no longer apples to apples.

The same concept can be applied to home systems. All you vinyl lovers tweak the crap out of your system for that one perfect sound that you're looking for. Would you actually expect any other medium to sound its best in that same setup? Try bringing the reel to reel master tape (since 'it's gotta be analog') into your home setup - I can guarantee that it will sound like crap.

If I may make an observation...I see a lot of vinyl guys running around changing out every part of their turntables - gotta have the best needle, the best arm, the best cartridge, the best preamp, etc etc...and then gotta baby the records and do this and do that... The point being that the sound is constantly changing. And then take into account that every playing of the vinyl adds to the wear and tear...how many times can you play a record before the change in sound is audible? I'm yet to get an answer to that one []

But ultimately, it all comes down to the song you're listening to. Whether it be AM radio, the best CD rig, or the best LP rig, it's still the same bloody song. Either you enjoy it or you don't. (though following that logic to its conclusion implies that we all go out and get HTIB's...)

Once again coming from someone who's yet to hear a decent vinyl setup.

Until you do, please put a sock in it. It's getting old.

But he read some where................

[DrWho]

You are the one telling me I'm yet to hear a "decent" vinyl

setup...and so far the most expensive I've heard has been around

$15,000. How much was the setup in Hope? Was it "decent" on your

standards? Not like it matters, the acoustics were horrid and so was

the volume. I've also heard a few dozen vinyl rigs here and there all

ranging between relatively cheap and moderately priced. The majority of

vinyl lovers out there would say I've heard quite a few systems that

represent good sounding vinyl.

But if that's still not enough personal experience, tell me what I need

to listen to and with what gear etc etc...I will glady give a blunt

review, especially if it means claiming the vinyl sounds better. I'm

willing to drive within a 2 hour radius from 60504 or 61820.

[pmsummer]

What the hell... better late than never.

On almost everyone I know's "home entertainment systems", CDs beat vinyl (not on mine).

Beatles Bones and Smokin' Stones (with a tip o'the hat to Captain Beefheart),

Mercy does indeed beat Justice (or I wouldn't be here),

The Truth beats Philosophies and Religions,

Points and Dwell beats Electronic Ignition? Even NASCAR has given up on that,

Corona beats Heinken as something to rinse your glass with before pouring a REAL beer,

Red Heads beat Blondes in skin cancers.

[fini]

OK, I've gotta jump in here. Y'all are forgetting the best part about LPs...THE COVERS! I haven't researched this, but I doubt any of these recent puchases will ever make it to CD...