Are we ALL missing something?

[dtel]

One more thing, If everybody loved Klipsch the price would be to high for me and you would have to wait much longer for yours , and forget about fleabay.

[Jeff Matthews]

One more thing, If everybody loved Klipsch the price would be to high for me and you would have to wait much longer for yours , and forget about fleabay.

Do tell! []

[oldbuckster]

KRITON; My response was a general overview of all I have read on this post;DRIBBLE. It was not intended for you personally, calm down.

Not everyone likes the same thing, and speakers are no different. I would not buy anything but Klipsch. MY CHOICE, MY MONEY. They are alot of more knowledgable people than me that don't like Klipsch, for whatever reason, and that's a CHOICE they make. Just because I present another view doesn't mean I'm wrong. I feel the MUSIC is more important than what speakers I have, or don't have.Get a Grip Dude!!

PS: Wipe off your chin!

[Kriton]

OLDBUCKSTER: It must be wonderful to live in a universe where you

are the sole arbiter of what is and isn't worthwhile discussion.

By the way my ignorant little friend, the word you are trying to use is

"DRIVEL", which I tried to point out more tactfully in my last post,

and you have added nothing to this, MY, thread but your dismissive and

condescending posts. A habit for you as I recall. If your

speakers are terrible, doesn't the MUSIC suffer as a result, or do you

just imagine what it SHOULD sound like?

My grip is quite fine and I have been in possession of it for some

years, how is yours? I suggest you locate it, and climb right off

my cloud.

Back to the discussion - what is the determining factor with what is

quality components for use with Klipsch - Who determines what is

"garbage in"? Not trying to be argumentative, but is it a price

threashhold, a certain electronic architecture, or what? That

seems terribly subjective too - the folks I have asked over at the

AVSForum who dislike Klipsch speakers have told me some pretty

impressive components that they have used to listen to older Klipsch

heritage speakers (Cary's, Levinson, and some stuff I have never heard

of before, sounded impressive - with the understanding that most of

those guys are out of this country I think) - and the attitude was till

the same, "bright till my eyes bleed" or the like...so can room

treatment really effect the legendary "brightness" that much? No

one has commented on the statment that was made about the alleged trade

off that PWK made between tone and efficiency...do you think that is

true?

K

[Jay481985]

Maybe they think bright because they are raising the volume knob like it's their 91 db per watt speakers? []

[dtel]

The word " Ignorant " is not really needed, everyone has an opinion you don't have to be ignorant to have a different one. IMHO

[johnyholiday]

Are we fighting again, remember the delicate condition, we know, we know, you got your pretty new Heresys,MEN!pfft

[oldbuckster]

OLDBUCKSTER: It must be wonderful to live in a universe where you are the sole arbiter of what is and isn't worthwhile discussion. By the way my ignorant little friend, the word you are trying to use is "DRIVEL", which I tried to point out more tactfully in my last post, and you have added nothing to this, MY, thread but your dismissive and condescending posts. A habit for you as I recall. If your speakers are terrible, doesn't the MUSIC suffer as a result, or do you just imagine what it SHOULD sound like?

My grip is quite fine and I have been in possession of it for some years, how is yours? I suggest you locate it, and climb right off my cloud.

Back to the discussion - what is the determining factor with what is quality components for use with Klipsch - Who determines what is "garbage in"? Not trying to be argumentative, but is it a price threashhold, a certain electronic architecture, or what? That seems terribly subjective too - the folks I have asked over at the AVSForum who dislike Klipsch speakers have told me some pretty impressive components that they have used to listen to older Klipsch heritage speakers (Cary's, Levinson, and some stuff I have never heard of before, sounded impressive - with the understanding that most of those guys are out of this country I think) - and the attitude was till the same, "bright till my eyes bleed" or the like...so can room treatment really effect the legendary "brightness" that much? No one has commented on the statment that was made about the alleged trade off that PWK made between tone and efficiency...do you think that is true?

K

It's DRIBBLE: by the way Hunter S. Thompson passed away awhile ago, and I really don't want to be on your cloud. Call me some more names if that's what you need to do, your response speaks for it's self.

[maxg]

Loudspeakers - choose your compromise.

How many speakers are there available in the market today in all price ranges? God only knows! Why?

In simple terms - there is no one perfect solution - and it does not matter how much you spend - there are things your choice will not do well.

For example as a recent show I spent a couple of hours listening to a pair of JMLab Grand Utopias - and very nice they were too - for a mere $70,000.

Thing is - the room they were playing in was approximatley 5 times the size of my living room. How would they sound in my living room - probably not very good. The room is simply not big enough to avoid giving the sound that boxed in feeling. I would simply never be able to get a well proportioned soundstage out of them - and who knows what problems I would suffer from with reverberation and attempting to obtain something close to a flat frequency response.

In another direction I heard not all that long ago a very large pair of Maggie's (20 something model number I think).

Soundstage to burn, depth like I have never heard it a huge and magnificent protrayal of classical music (Berlioz - Symphony Fantastique). The result, however, tapered into something of a disappointment with Dire Straits Money for Nothing. It sounded OK - but the guitars didn't really stum my soul. There was a lack of impact - the bass was there - but not the pressure wave somehow. Guitars had a rather remote feeling although the voice was perfect.

Another option? B&W 802's with a monster 500 wpc power amp. Great sound! Great soundstage. Plenty of impact, loads of good bass, excellent voice - is this the speaker that has it all?

No.

They went loud for sure. They were powerful and well balanced for sure - but they never quite went live. I could not close my eyes and envision the performers in front of me in quite the same way as I can with a horn loaded speaker. Fabulous recordings - but not a real event.

OK - how about the venerably Klipsch-horn? Well - its the definition of live in my book. Huge soundstage, huge image, buckets of power, excellent bass response, voice to die for, guitars that make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

So that's the perfect speaker then? Sadly - no again. Stuck in a corner (a limiting factor that cannot be discounted) there is simply little or no sense of depth in comparison to some of the others (actually all of the others).

Notice I have not mentioned harshness. Klipsch speakers can be made to sound very harsh to most listeners. They may have high sensitivity but that does not mean they are easy to drive. They have relatively huge impedance peaks that can bring lesser amps to their knees and need careful mating with upstream components to balance the sound. Garbage in : garbage out is exacerbated by they high sensitivity. It becomes obvious that something is wrong VERY quickly. Hear a Khorn once and it will leave a lasting impression (same for any Heritage speaker). If that impression is bad it will take a long time to shift.

So can we draw any conclusions?

Well, in reality there are not all that many designs of speaker out there - although there are plenty of makes. Of the potential designs fully horn loaded is not a common option. If you are doing something different many will find that simple fact an effront to their likes and dislikes. Panning on the basis of the approach used is hardly uncommon. Horn loading is a red flag to many and illicits a knee jerk reaction.

Whilst horn loading is not all that common outside of Klipsch it does exist. The Avantgarde range, for example is a fine horn loaded alternative that happens to cost a whole lot more. Better than Klipsch? Sometimes. I would love to own a pair of Trio's - but I would have sacrifices to make to get them, not the least of which would be one wife.

At the end of the day you go for that magical combination of what you like and what you can afford. Listening to other systems is always educational and it is never beyond the bounds of possibility that you could find another make or style that you like more. If you can afford it - why not?

Audio is a very personal affair. One man's meat is another man's poison. My best friend and I hardly agree on a single system and that is fine.

[Tom Adams]

In between changing LP's, maxg wrote: Hear a Khorn once and it will leave a lasting impression (same for any Heritage speaker). If that impression is bad it will take a long time to shift.

Quite possibly Kriton....there's your answer. It would not be hard to imagine that folks have heard Heresy's or some such being driven by a SS amp that wasn't up to the task (regardless of it's brand) and experienced "nail through the temple" harshness - I know I have. Unfortunately, they never took the opportunity to hear what that speaker could do mated to an amp or other components that were more suited. Add to this, them telling others of their experience and those telling others and you wind up with the perverbial fish story.

I think Kriton, you should just post on the other forum that we here send our condolences for their misconceptions and lost opportunities of hearing Klipsch as they should be. [] []

Tom

[Kriton]

Max and Tom, thanks - I appreciate the responses.

I have never heard a $70k pair of speakers, and would never pay that

much for a speaker. I agree with some previous posters that

Klipsch heritage sound "live", that is more like the band is right in

front of you, but I also agree that that is not necessarily a good

thing. I have been to plenty of exciting stage shows that were

marvelous to experience, but the actual music was distorted and almost

incomprehensible.

I have heard the harshness too, I guess I just have a hard time

believing that these other guys could hear this speaker once and on the

basis of perhaps one bad hearing, label it all as crap. I try to

be as objective as I can, with orchestras, bands and components.

Perhaps that is where my real misunderstanding lies. The last

time I heard a KHorn was a long time ago, and it seems that there is a

lot of discussion about the KHorn being the pinnacle, but I don;t own

any of those (yet), so my only comparison are the CW's and Heresys, and

the completely different RF's right now; really makes me wonder how

much better the KHorns must be...

I have also think that I have learned from you guys that set-up is even

more important with a horn loaded speaker due to the physics of the

thing than a conventional loudspeaker, making many our horns sound

harsh or lacking when it wasn't really the speakers fault, but how the

thing was set up - is that generally the truth?

Thanks again,

I am getting it now.

K

[DrWho]

You know what, like a LOT of folks, I have heard BOSE sound pretty

convincing too, in their little Best Buy setup with the speakers over

your shoulders and the center in your face, haven't you? SO, I

question my own tastes and what I am hearing sometimes, so do a lot of

folks here (hence the interminable threads on tweaks and upgrades and

crossovers - of which I am a major reader, ascriber and disciple).

Just goes to show how important psychology is in relation to the

listening of music. I suggest you do some reading on psychoacoustics as

you should find all your answers there.

But to sum it all up in a nutshell: if you want it to sound good, it

will sound good. If you want it to sound bad, it will sound bad. What

makes us want it to sound a certain way? Well that will be different

for every person. The key point here is the "frame of reference".

[CAS]

Second most overpriced???

By most people's standard what you'd pay for a midrange Klipsch 2-ch or ht is very modest, regardless of great SQ.

Overpriced??? I guess by Walmart standards, perhaps.

[Kriton]

That is what the poster said over there, claiming to have been a

Klispch salesman at an audio store...I had the same reaction as you did

though, don't what he considers overpriced, but if it is Bose he was

referring to then "frame fo referece" is indeed the question...

DrWho, you make a good point - Do you know what I am learning my

obession is? It is the "drug induced euphoria" - you know what I

mean... the high you felt the first time you listened to something

*really* good, or at least that much better than anything you heard

before. For example, growing up I had an old Zenith table top

radio, downfiring speaker, mono, on a strange rather horn shaped stand

to radiate the sound outward... I thought it sounded wonderful, used it

through high school even...then went I went to college, I sat in my new

friends dorm room, listening to his Nakamichi stereo playing some pap

popular music I had never heard before, In the Air Tonight by some

wacky brit named Phil Collins...and I was - shocked. Is was as if

someone had opened a vein right there and pumped me full of the most

astounding drug you have ever imagined. However you feel

about Phil Collins or Nak, it doesn't - didn't matter - it was

the sort of epiphany reserved for your first fast car or your first

fully functional girlfriend - and we, collectively, spend a lot

of time and money trying to recreate that singular experience

again. That is what psychoacoustics mean to me

Perhaps that is what I am trying to find, but at least now I think -

with your help - I know what I am looking for...it might be a waste of

time or stupid discussion, as some have pointed out on this thread, but

I think the journey is the goal, yes?

Thanks,

K

[kaiser SET say]

Let me start this with a thank you to Kriton for his kind comments about the sound of my speakers[]

I have read through all the post and what I would like to say is that I have been an Enthusiast since I was 11 years old when my older brother sent me (from Germany) a Grundig Valve operated shortwave stereo that had 2 way loudspeakers along the lines of the old Advent largers, 10" Woofs and a 3/4 inch Tweet and the rest as they say is history[]

I have had 4 really nice systems since that time and to me it's all relative but all different at the same time. I believe all systems must be matched in order to get full potential and as someone said before Klipsch (Heritage) are one of the most gear sensitive speakers ever and Max hit that one on the head with his comment about their efficient nature.

I also believe the Heritage line will always be the closest thing to a live show because of their relation to the live (Horn Loaded) setup. Paul just made a home line in the K-Horn, Belle & LaScalla's which we all know could be used for PA or live venue events anytime[]

My favorite term for my LaScalla's is they posses unbelievable presence (also a great album[])!

I love both the LaScalla's and my Naut 804's but I can keep all things in context and understand the difference in the speakers themselves and the entire systems. I can also appreciate the difference in what comes out of both systems for what they are and as the OldBuckster says it is about the music that drives us in this hobby.

As I told Kriton on his visit I was sitting pretty good at the time I purchased my BAT & B&W gear and I got it all at dealer comp so I felt I have gotten great return on that investment even though I know many of you think what these items cost is way too much it is as someone said my money so don't get yourself too out of place on something that does not affect your life at all. Beside I love being thought of as an idiot[:|]

I don't know about any psychoacoustics but I can tell you one must understand what he owns and how it works to evaluate it and understand it's characteristics either as an individual unit or the entire setup.

Enjoy what you have and always try to be helpful and courteous to other enthusiast and the world will be a better place.

Please ignore any negativity towards Klipsch as they are probably negative people to begin with[]

[pmsummer]

That is what the poster said over there, claiming to have been a

Klispch salesman at an audio store...I had the same reaction as you did

though, don't what he considers overpriced, but if it is Bose he was

referring to then "frame fo referece" is indeed the question...

Back in the late 70's there was a "Klipsch" dealer in Dallas that always ran ads based on price ("Klipschorns: $700" IIRC). When you went to their store, they were out of the Khorns ("Sold out and back ordered from the factory. Should have more in about six months. Cash up front to order at this price."), but they had their demo pair set up. Then they'd want you to listen to some speakers you'd never heard of that sold for about $375. A/B-ing them with the Klipsch, they just sang. The Horns were harsh, bright, and thin. Their mystery speaker (this was before the day of the white vans, but the same idea) sounded great... in comparison to some obviously jiggered Klipsch.

It was my understanding that they were finally forced out of business by Klipsch.

"Audio" salesmen too often spring from the same root as used-car salesmen.

[Tom Adams]

BTW Kriton......since you seem to be on some kinda audio nirvana search, a little bit of advice. No - actually, I need ya to make me a promise.

Do not, and I mean DO NOT make the same mistake as I did last December while visiting with Chris Robinson. Chris, always the gentleman he is, innocently asked if my wife & I would like to see the guest house thing they have over their garage and it's also where his Cornwall based system is. So we accepted, unbeknownst to us that his Cornwalls were hooked up to a pair of SET monoblocks. Although I have a pair of Cornwalls, and I am completely happy with their sound being driven by my Halo SS amp, the wife & I were completely amazed at the wonderful sound Chris' Cornwalls delivered. Better than mine? Not necessarily, just a very different and very pleasing sound - "warmer" if I had to pick just one word.

Anyhow.....my point is that tubes (with regards to driving Klipsch Heritage) is truly the path to the Dark Side. I emplore you to refrain. If it weren't for the wife's intervention, I'm sure I would've been lost to the Dark Side for several times after we left the Robinson's I would blurt out KT88 or SET or BIAS or some such (which is kinda embarassing when you're sitting on the throne in a public restroom [:$] ). Even now I find myself doodling in meetings drawing images of bottlehead tubes.

You've been warned - that's the most I can do.

Tom

ps: I knew Chris had SET amps and he wasn't really trying to deceive me. At least that's what he said. []

[Kriton]

Too late...After hearing Kaiser's sweet TT setup, I ahve already been

shopping around for my office system...and it will have tubes and maybe

a pair of those Nautilus speakers - ok, just kidding, TT, Tubes

and KHorns are my next thing...wife will have to keep watching the 36"

low def. TV...

Already got the tube bug, dammit. But thanks for the warnings...

K

[seti]

Coming from Arkansas most of my friends parents owned either khorns belles or hereseys. I grew up with the klipsch sound at parties and events etc and have always liked the heritage sound so when I could afford it I got some belles. I am sure there are better speakers out ther but for me its very nostalgic having these speakers and the sound is very familiar to me. If they sound good to me thats all I care about. One of the few speakers I have heard that gave me the upgrade bug was the jubilee. I love the klipsch folded bass horns.

Tubes and Horns.....hell yeah

[Bruinsrme]

Hi Everyone,

I went through a couple of spekaer systems before I ended up with an Ref 3 system and eventually a Ref 7 setup.

I grew so tired of the in your face speaker presence of the Klipsch. I tried external amps a different receiver and so on. I gave up and dumped the Klipsch and went to a Rockets set up 750s, the bigfoot, book shelfs fo surrounds and the surrounds for the back. They were surely laid back, jsut an estimate about 100 feet back. Live DVDs sounded like they were studio recordings, movies sounded ok but the impact and detail I heard in the Klipsch were gone.

So what in the hell am I doing here in the Klipsch forum. Well, after not being able to enjoy music or HT I simply let the system sit idle for nearly 16months. In the 16months I fired up the system for about 5 hours. Not able to get a sound a sound that I thought was true I grew disgusted and walked away. Again why am I here?

While on a busness trip in the phoenix area I met one of the SVS forum goers. We played a couple of hours of vairous music and movies and the sound was pretty good, something I had been missing. Havin BA the sound was pretty good but just a little less than the Klipsch of yesteryear. I felt the HT itch coming back.

When I returned home I started auditioning speakers. Many sounded bland and some sounded good and some excellent. In keeping in my budget of $2200 the choices available were slim. My friend who was jsut putting his first HT together dragged to the local dealer that jsut so happens to have Klipsch. We went into the demo room and fired up the Ref7 setup. Ah yes, the sound I remember, I thought to myself. He turned to me and said now this iw what your place sounded like, Not like " ". (I promised myself I would not bash Rockets).

Well, the Rockets went up for sale that evening. to say I simply unloaded them is an understatement.

Off I went to hunt for Klipsch. Unfortunately the dealer around here was not able to meet my needs and I turned to ebay. For $2200 I was able to get 4 RB75s , and RC7 and a pair of RS7s.

What are we missing NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA, etc.......

Klipsch reference line provides a in your face sensation. Which in my eyes means it puts you in the action, first row center, in the same room as the actors and so on.

have you ever watched a drummer hit a cymbal and you can't hear it? Surely not the situation with Klipsch.

I realized I really like Klipsch, it took a while but I can appreciate what I hear now.

Scott