Are we ALL missing something?

[Daddy Dee]

Kriton,

Interesting thread.

My take on it, Klipsch types, (or other horn types) I suppose will always bring the minority report on audio.

I actually don't know what to make of the hostility toward Klipsch among so many audio types. Have sometimes wondered if it is because so often the amplifiers and source gear that sounds fine with less efficient speakers actually suck big time with big efficient horns. Folks could hook up a pair of Heritage to a system that sounded pretty good with xxx, then sounds harsh with klipsch. Who knows. maybe it can't be good because it's made in Arkansas.

Other types all have their own reference sound, the difference, or "improvement" is always subjective. To my ears, the Heritage speakers just sound present and live.

I guess I can smile at my lack of sophistication... I've got a speaker that's been in production for 60 years. How could technology that old possibily be good?

[pmsummer]

Kriton,

I guess I can smile at my lack of

sophistication... I've got a speaker that's been in production for 60

years. How could technology that old possibly be good?

Because it's not as "complicated" as some would have us believe.

I have

a pair of the same Mission 700's that oldtimer

mentioned (they're

usually hooked up to my computer system). Twenty-six year old

technology that still sounds great. I've a pair of original EPI 100's

that always make me smile. Ever looked inside of one? Just ONE 10uF cap

for

a crossover. Beautiful sound still, after thirty-five years. Fifty-five

years ago Henry Kloss was demonstrating AR3's by recording live music

at the museum, and then A/B-ing the recorded sound with the live.

People could't tell the difference. AR3's ARE NOT rocket science, but

art as technology.

The human brain and audio canal have FAR more to do with quality sound

than esoteric designs using cast-off technology from Reagan's Star Wars

program...and the human requirement is pretty simple. Make a noise,

move/disturb air. The speaker's job is to reproduce that disturbance faithfully (based on what's fed into it).

People "hate" Klipsch for the same reasons they "hate" the Redskins or

the Cowboys or OU or the Fighting Irish or the Trojans or Miami...they

want to be on a "team", and preferably a winning one.

There are mass-market speakers I don't particularly like the sound

from...most JBL's, all Pioneers, Cerwin Vegas, Heresys, and many of the

mid-period Klipsches. But I love K-horns, LaScalas, and Cornwalls. Always have.

Part of what I love about my speakers (Cornwalls) is how well they

handle the music I feed into them: small ensembles, female voices (solo

voices in general), upright basses, pianos, banjos, saxophones,

bassoons, pipes, Les Paul guitars, drumsets.

So, to the folks who don't like my Klipsches: Get over it. My Cornwalls

won't be the last speakers I ever own (so many speakers, so little

time), but they may well remain as my PRIMARY speakers (at least until

the old McIntosh dies).

Bottom line: they're your ears, use them as you like. PWK designed art as technology, and I get to visit the museum every day in my own living room.

[Fish]

Well,luckily for me I've heard a bunch of speakers in and around my

price range and the klipsch sound better to my ears.They must sound

better to others ears too cause half the people I know that go to get a

set up buy klipsch cause they heard mine.I can give a long list of

2/3/4/$k speakers I've owned,I kept the Klipsch.

Once you get hooked on the Klipsch sound many others sound kinda

lifeless.Sure,I know there is better,but at what price? I think the

reason many of us love our Klipsch is they're the ultimate bang for the

buck.

[Kriton]

I have read all of the responses - and what it comes down to for me...I

had the opportunity to spend some good quality time tonight breaking in

a pair of brand new H2's, the last of the breed straight from Hope last

weekend...

While I usually listen to classical music or jazz on my Heresys, I just

happen to like some teeth rattling once in a while and I needed to get

these woofer cones moving, so I put in the new Nickelback cd - and I

cranked it - loud...Played "Next Contestant"a dozen or more

times...thunderous bass licks on this cd...

Damn, man...it was almost painful...these are the flatest truest

sounding small-ish speakers I have ever heard, and I really believe

they could give my beloved Cornwalls a run for the money - what a

difference 20 years between the two makes...and I haven't even started

tweaking yet!

Not as sweet as the B&W's I heard on my trip to AK this last

weekend, but for $545/pair new in the box, they are something to

hear...it would take me a lot to give these things up, I am telling

you...and with some more shake down time, they can only get

better...there may be better speakers, but I haven't heard it...so

maybe I am just a dolt, and I enjoy my ignorance...

K

[MrMcGoo]

The thread in question should be taken as a grain of salt. Every major brand has disappointed someone.

Klipsch sells lots of speakers. Many folks do not bother to set them up properly. Hence there are many folks that are disappointed.

I have never had a disappointed listener in my room.

Bill

[kev313]

There's no doubt there MUST be speakers that can compete very well with Klipsch, if not surpass them - even in the same price range. You will not find too many people owning Klipsch saying they are not good. That's why the general audio forums are more prone to have members who dis Klipsch than this forum does.

I wouldn't mind hearing some of these hi-end speakers, like B&W, etc. Nonetheless, I won't go looking for them, and if I hear them and like them, I won't ditch my Klipsch.

There just comes a point in life when you get something good enough for a particular need, and then you go on to other needs. You might come back to it and re-evaluate once in a while, but to be compulsive about it can hinder alot of other areas for progress.

For example, although the tweaks and mods can and do, many times, make an improvement, how many people have bought $2k used KHorns, and after all the combined tweaking and modding, found out that the KHorns were the cheapest part of the deal?

Kind of like the story about getting a child into horse-riding. The horse is the cheapest part.

To cite a statistic noted in the book, "The Millionaire Next Door," did you know that extensive polling has shown that the number-one vehicle purchased by millionaires is the Ford F-150? Not Lexus, Mercedes or BMW.

You can decide from there what to make of it.

How about, to those people money in the bank is more important than enjoying that aspect of their life? Personally, if given the choice, and assuming I drove a reasonable amount (which I don't), I would be in the $930,000-aire group and driving a Mercedes. Assuming an otherwise well balanced portfolio, there would be no way in hell I could justify a Ford pick-up simply to put the money in the bank. Life is too short to not enjoy what you have.

Then again, it may also mean that the polls weren't done anywhere around where I live and grew up. I probably go 11 months of the year without seeking a Ford truck, so my opinion may be a bit skewed.

Opinions differ, of course, but I like the tweaking aspect. To me that is one of the elements that defines 2 channel as a hobby as opposed to simply "listening to the radio." Heck Jeff, for a guy that isn't into tweaking, you spend a fair bit of time on the Klipsch forum![]

[stan krajewski]

I firmly believe that if we could have been at the listening rooms at

Klipsch, Advent, AR, JBL, Altec, B&W and heard what the engineers

and "golden ears" heard that we would be blown away. These companies

have/had the right amps, pre-amps and source material to maximize their

products output. But mostly they had the right listening enviornment.

The room.

If you could visit Klipsch or B&W and hear there great speakers set

up properly, then you could truly assess the characteristic

differences. Not whether they are "bad" or "good" but whether you like

the presentation they offer.

Lets face it, most of us happy crappy rooms. Not to admit that just

condems us to years of buying and selling of speakers (or other

equipment) until we get a setup that is not at total war with the room.

[Jeff Matthews]

There's no doubt there MUST be speakers that can compete very well with Klipsch, if not surpass them - even in the same price range. You will not find too many people owning Klipsch saying they are not good. That's why the general audio forums are more prone to have members who dis Klipsch than this forum does.

I wouldn't mind hearing some of these hi-end speakers, like B&W, etc. Nonetheless, I won't go looking for them, and if I hear them and like them, I won't ditch my Klipsch.

There just comes a point in life when you get something good enough for a particular need, and then you go on to other needs. You might come back to it and re-evaluate once in a while, but to be compulsive about it can hinder alot of other areas for progress.

For example, although the tweaks and mods can and do, many times, make an improvement, how many people have bought $2k used KHorns, and after all the combined tweaking and modding, found out that the KHorns were the cheapest part of the deal?

Kind of like the story about getting a child into horse-riding. The horse is the cheapest part.

To cite a statistic noted in the book, "The Millionaire Next Door," did you know that extensive polling has shown that the number-one vehicle purchased by millionaires is the Ford F-150? Not Lexus, Mercedes or BMW.

You can decide from there what to make of it.

How about, to those people money in the bank is more important than enjoying that aspect of their life? Personally, if given the choice, and assuming I drove a reasonable amount (which I don't), I would be in the $930,000-aire group and driving a Mercedes. Assuming an otherwise well balanced portfolio, there would be no way in hell I could justify a Ford pick-up simply to put the money in the bank. Life is too short to not enjoy what you have.

Then again, it may also mean that the polls weren't done anywhere around where I live and grew up. I probably go 11 months of the year without seeking a Ford truck, so my opinion may be a bit skewed.

Opinions differ, of course, but I like the tweaking aspect. To me that is one of the elements that defines 2 channel as a hobby as opposed to simply "listening to the radio." Heck Jeff, for a guy that isn't into tweaking, you spend a fair bit of time on the Klipsch forum![]

Yeah, I'm spending less, now. But it is fun to read and participate. My point on the tweaking thing was not to say tweaking is bad. But I do notice alot of people are caught by the bug - spending thousands, then selling, then spending more - and so on. If they live very comfortably, then, what the heck.

Life may be too short not to enjoy it along the way, but more importantly, life is too precious to get old and worry about finances because "KHorns and a Crown amp were not good enough" - if you know what I mean. The same compulsions usually trickle over to Rolexes, Armanis, Lexus, club memberships, etc. - to where every nickel and dime gets sucked out of a person. I know everyone has different priorities, and different strokes for different folks. I guess mine is more aligned with having no debts, having the house paid for by age 40 and being able to retire before age 50. I'm 38.

I think the book is a good read and describes my habits to some extent. I would say it is not about crawling in a hole and living like a hermit; it is more like not getting caught up in a life of compulsion that drives conspicuous consumption. I believe the book aptly describes averages in terms of behavior patterns that either impede or contribute to financial freedom.

It is not about being a $930,000-aire and driving a Mercedes. It is about driving a Mercedes throughout life and because of that (and other similar expenditures) never amassing even $930,000.

Saving is boring, and Timex watches are hardly a conversation piece. This is why the debt loads for middle America are ther highest ever, and it is why the wealth gap is widening.

But so much for my view on economics, back to the program.

[jacksonbart]

There's no doubt there MUST be speakers that can compete very well with Klipsch, if not surpass them - even in the same price range. You will not find too many people owning Klipsch saying they are not good. That's why the general audio forums are more prone to have members who dis Klipsch than this forum does.

I wouldn't mind hearing some of these hi-end speakers, like B&W, etc. Nonetheless, I won't go looking for them, and if I hear them and like them, I won't ditch my Klipsch.

There just comes a point in life when you get something good enough for a particular need, and then you go on to other needs. You might come back to it and re-evaluate once in a while, but to be compulsive about it can hinder alot of other areas for progress.

For example, although the tweaks and mods can and do, many times, make an improvement, how many people have bought $2k used KHorns, and after all the combined tweaking and modding, found out that the KHorns were the cheapest part of the deal?

Kind of like the story about getting a child into horse-riding. The horse is the cheapest part.

To cite a statistic noted in the book, "The Millionaire Next Door," did you know that extensive polling has shown that the number-one vehicle purchased by millionaires is the Ford F-150? Not Lexus, Mercedes or BMW.

You can decide from there what to make of it.

How about, to those people money in the bank is more important than enjoying that aspect of their life? Personally, if given the choice, and assuming I drove a reasonable amount (which I don't), I would be in the $930,000-aire group and driving a Mercedes. Assuming an otherwise well balanced portfolio, there would be no way in hell I could justify a Ford pick-up simply to put the money in the bank. Life is too short to not enjoy what you have.

Then again, it may also mean that the polls weren't done anywhere around where I live and grew up. I probably go 11 months of the year without seeking a Ford truck, so my opinion may be a bit skewed.

Opinions differ, of course, but I like the tweaking aspect. To me that is one of the elements that defines 2 channel as a hobby as opposed to simply "listening to the radio." Heck Jeff, for a guy that isn't into tweaking, you spend a fair bit of time on the Klipsch forum![]

Yeah, I'm spending less, now. But it is fun to read and participate. My point on the tweaking thing was not to say tweaking is bad. But I do notice alot of people are caught by the bug - spending thousands, then selling, then spending more - and so on. If they live very comfortably, then, what the heck.

Life may be too short not to enjoy it along the way, but more importantly, life is too precious to get old and worry about finances because "KHorns and a Crown amp were not good enough" - if you know what I mean. The same compulsions usually trickle over to Rolexes, Armanis, Lexus, club memberships, etc. - to where every nickel and dime gets sucked out of a person. I know everyone has different priorities, and different strokes for different folks. I guess mine is more aligned with having no debts, having the house paid for by age 40 and being able to retire before age 50. I'm 38.

I think the book is a good read and describes my habits to some extent. I would say it is not about crawling in a hole and living like a hermit; it is more like not getting caught up in a life of compulsion that drives conspicuous consumption. I believe the book aptly describes averages in terms of behavior patterns that either impede or contribute to financial freedom.

It is not about being a $930,000-aire and driving a Mercedes. It is about driving a Mercedes throughout life and because of that (and other similar expenditures) never amassing even $930,000.

Saving is boring, and Timex watches are hardly a conversation piece. This is why the debt loads for middle America are ther highest ever, and it is why the wealth gap is widening.

But so much for my view on economics, back to the program.

Jeff - So does this mean when your 50 and living off investment income your going to change your signature about dividend income?

[oldbuckster]

Somebody help me here; What is the point to all of this dribble? My speakers are bigger than your speakers? My speakers are better than his speakers? Isn't about the Music, or soundtracks, that we use our speakers,( no matter the brand or size), to reproduce for our enjoyment? It stands to reason that we like our Klipsch brand, it is a Klipsch Forum. Isn't great that we have CHOICES, choices in what we buy, what we listen to, and what we watch. Different people are into different things, doesn't make them wrong. Enjoy what you have, and let the other person enjoy what they have, and let's all enjoy the music together, that's what it is all about.

[Tom Adams]

It's quite possible that this "thing" about Klipsch is a result of folks' sonic experience with out-of-the-box Klipsch speakers versus other brands. To wit: A couple of weeks ago, I decided to kill some time at my local Klipsch dealer. As I walked in I noticed a couple of sales folks hovering over a pallet of new Reference series (RB51, 61, 81). They were all interested in how they sounded so they started unpacking and hooked them up into an existing system comprised of a Denon 5803, Denon 3910, and a Klipsch RW-12. Of the three pairs of speakers currently playing were a pair of Def Tech bookshelfs. The first Klipsch pair were RB-61's and immediately after being hooked up, the sales guys started commenting about how "harsh" they sounded. And you know what - I agreed with them. However, we also agreed that they would take some time to "calm down" and that with maybe different electronics and in the right room they'd be just fine. But there's the rub - if you're a sales person it's tough to counter that inital impression - especially if the other speaker the customer was listening to sounds much smoother out-of-the-box.

Let's face it, there's basically two types of people: 1.) Those who buy a vehicle and just drive it and 2.) those who buy a vehicle and then start making changes to it.

I suspect that the folks who don't care for Klipsch, probably just buy cars and drive 'em. And folks who buy Klipsch and other speakers that take some effort to get the sound tailored accordingly, also mod their cars/trucks.

Just my $.02 worth.

Tom

[Jeff Matthews]

.... or they could like Klipsch and not mod their cars and trucks.

JB, I won't change my signature. It still won't be fair, but them's the rules, and I'd like to take advantage.

[Jay481985]

Heh and my mother would be the one that just drives them! She has the

same car for over 4 years now and she still does not know how to use

the radio properly or cruise control or a/c (thank god that there is a

one touch auto button)!

[pmsummer]

Well, somebody's certainly missing something.

You can spend your time listening to high-fidelity gear, or you can listen to music. I'll take the music, thank you, and I hear enough live music of various styles to know when that experience is recreated to my satisfaction.

[Jeff Matthews]

Well, somebody's certainly missing something.

You can spend your time listening to high-fidelity gear, or you can listen to music. I'll take the music, thank you, and I hear enough live music of various styles to know when that experience is recreated to my satisfaction.

----

A very minimal kit: Klipsch Cornwall's, McIntosh MA-6100, B&O 1700 w/MMC20CE (Sennheiser HD424's for when everyone else is asleep).

But then, again, much of the music sounds better produced in a studio than live.

[pmsummer]

But then, again, much of the music sounds better produced in a studio than live.

Might depend on what you listen to.

A Chamber Quartet playing in a parking lot will sound worse than one recorded in a studio.

A Chamber Quartet (or Jazz Ensemble, or Bluegrass Group) playing in an intimate, acoustically appropriate venue will sound better than one recorded in CBS' Recording Studio A.

[ironwoods]

Folks,.......AVS forum.......I would like to hear some opinions...

K

There are very, very bad people over there. [:|]

[Kriton]

Somebody help me here; What is the point to

all of this dribble? My speakers are bigger than your speakers? My

speakers are better than his speakers? Isn't about the Music, or

soundtracks, that we use our speakers,( no matter the brand or size),

to reproduce for our enjoyment? It stands to reason that we like our

Klipsch brand, it is a Klipsch Forum. Isn't great that we have CHOICES,

choices in what we buy, what we listen to, and what we watch. Different

people are into different things, doesn't make them wrong. Enjoy what

you have, and let the other person enjoy what they have, and let's all

enjoy the music together, that's what it is all about.

OK, pops - I have had to stop a couple of times from responding to your

post in order to control a spontaneous outbreak of invectives, so here

goes...

First, I haven't "dribbled" since I was an infant, and one time I was

drunk in college, but I don't count that - your present experience may

differ.

Second, did you actually read my initial question? Or even better

the thread that I pointed to, or did you just try to glean the general

gist of the conversation from the posts here, and fire off your useless

post dismissing what you regard as "dribble"?

Here is the deal, since I didn't appear to be clear the first couple of

times: My question dealt with the fact that there are many other

folks , not on this forum, that believe that Klipsch speakers

suck. Some (not all) of those people have a hell of a lot more

experience in listening and choosing speakers and components than I -

and as here, I respect some of their opinions. I asked why it is

the general consensus outside of this forum, that Klipsch speakers are

terrible, and whether as a collective - we are missing something in our

assessment. I love my speakers, for the solidity of them and for

the legacy that is Paul Klipsch, the history. However, I am open

to other opinions and points of view on new components and

speakers. When pretty much 90% of another forum apparently thinks

that Klipsch suck, I have to stand back and ask exactly why - and what

it is that they are hearing that I am not. What I get however, is

"relax - listen to the music not the components" - which is

nonsense. I believe that comment above came from someone with Mac

and B&O components - unless it was the first stereo he ever owned

and he "never saw no reason to change 'er" - he chose those components

on the basis of comparison, and assumably the opinions of others.

I rely on opinions of folks on this forum (most) when evaluating a new

speaker, system, what have you. I haven't heard Crites tweeters,

but I am ordering a pair - why? Because of the positive feedback

YOU have given them, and because Bob is an upstanding guy. If a

thread was/is started that says that the new reference line just isn't

up to snuff, you bet I will be reading that and taking it into account

in my next purchase decision. A thread on the other forum says,

in comparison, Klipsch is terrible, you bet I am wondering (given that

I like it a lot) what the OTHER stuff must sound like? If you

don't, then we are just not on the same planet.

My thread was harmless and it has devolved into the millionaire next

door and dismissal from you who believe you have all the answers; thank you

to those who maintained the topic and attempted to answer the

question. To those who preferred to tell me to relax, get bent.

Rant quietly concluded.

K

[Jeff Matthews]

Somebody help me here; What is the point to all of this dribble? My speakers are bigger than your speakers? My speakers are better than his speakers? Isn't about the Music, or soundtracks, that we use our speakers,( no matter the brand or size), to reproduce for our enjoyment? It stands to reason that we like our Klipsch brand, it is a Klipsch Forum. Isn't great that we have CHOICES, choices in what we buy, what we listen to, and what we watch. Different people are into different things, doesn't make them wrong. Enjoy what you have, and let the other person enjoy what they have, and let's all enjoy the music together, that's what it is all about.

OK, pops - I have had to stop a couple of times from responding to your post in order to control a spontaneous outbreak of invectives, so here goes...

First, I haven't "dribbled" since I was an infant, and one time I was drunk in college, but I don't count that - your present experience may differ.

Second, did you actually read my initial question? Or even better the thread that I pointed to, or did you just try to glean the general gist of the conversation from the posts here, and fire off your useless post dismissing what you regard as "dribble"?

Here is the deal, since I didn't appear to be clear the first couple of times: My question dealt with the fact that there are many other folks , not on this forum, that believe that Klipsch speakers suck. Some (not all) of those people have a hell of a lot more experience in listening and choosing speakers and components than I - and as here, I respect some of their opinions. I asked why it is the general consensus outside of this forum, that Klipsch speakers are terrible, and whether as a collective - we are missing something in our assessment. I love my speakers, for the solidity of them and for the legacy that is Paul Klipsch, the history. However, I am open to other opinions and points of view on new components and speakers. When pretty much 90% of another forum apparently thinks that Klipsch suck, I have to stand back and ask exactly why - and what it is that they are hearing that I am not. What I get however, is "relax - listen to the music not the components" - which is nonsense. I believe that comment above came from someone with Mac and B&O components - unless it was the first stereo he ever owned and he "never saw no reason to change 'er" - he chose those components on the basis of comparison, and assumably the opinions of others. I rely on opinions of folks on this forum (most) when evaluating a new speaker, system, what have you. I haven't heard Crites tweeters, but I am ordering a pair - why? Because of the positive feedback YOU have given them, and because Bob is an upstanding guy. If a thread was/is started that says that the new reference line just isn't up to snuff, you bet I will be reading that and taking it into account in my next purchase decision. A thread on the other forum says, in comparison, Klipsch is terrible, you bet I am wondering (given that I like it a lot) what the OTHER stuff must sound like? If you don't, then we are just not on the same planet.

My thread was harmless and it has devolved into the millionaire next door and dismissal from you who believe you have all the answers; thank you to those who maintained the topic and attempted to answer the question. To those who preferred to tell me to relax, get bent.

Rant quietly concluded.

K

I don't think Oldie meant to offend. His remarks seemed, to me, to indicate that alot of posturing one speaker against another amounts to dribble. If you like what you have, that ought to be good enough.

But your point seems to differ in that you might be on a quest to leave Klipsch for greener pastures and want to hear some thoughts on where greener pastures might lie.

Both valid points - depending on what your goal is.... Reaffirmation of your choice? Or truly looking for alternatives?

By the way, I don't think anyone really got off topic - not even with the "Millionaire Next Door." The more diverse your responses are, the more insight you might get. My point was that there comes a point of waste when worrying about the next step up.

If you don't subscribe to that point of view, that's fine, waste your money. Just kidding, but I think it did answer the question along the following lines, which were "Yes, you could spend more money and find better speakers than Klipsch, but are you sure that's what you want to do?"

If you answer that question in the affirmative, you might then start getting people to suggest other places to unload your money.

[dtel]

Well if i found a set of speakers i like { Klipsch } i am way ahead of most people out there.

All the other people out there on other forums is not a general view all of the people buying speakers, It can't be because Klipsch has to big a piece of the market for that to be true .