Allan Songer Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Tell me again how you adjust VTA? I haven't seen any of those adjustable cartridges yet!! And of couse you CAN adjust VTA by raising and lowering the platter, but that's a very arcane way of doing things . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 VTA???? Paaallleeeaaaasssseeeeeeee!!!!! These tweeters (to my ears......AGAIN) do not blend well with the rest of the Khorn. The K77 seems to blend better with the Khorn's sound. It's consistent. To me, Bob's tweeters have a completely different sound (no matter what volume level they may be set) then the Khorns other horns. It's like sticking a fat women's head on a skinny man's body (or something like that). Maybe it's just my system but that's the way I hear it and I've NEVER had a problem with cymbols dropping off. Where'd you guys come up with THAT one????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 "Could it be production variation in this run of Bob's tweeters? This seems like a lot of opinion variation among the very experienced listeners here..." What did I miss? So far, everyone is reporting similiar results and using similiar adjectives to descibe what they are hearing -- except Gary. So, where exactly is all this "variation" in opinion between experienced listeners -- that sure isn't what I'm seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I never claimed to be an expert on vinyl playback systems, that's why I deferred to you. When I do show some humility, I get humiliated. Never freaking mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 In my testing of the new tweeters, the output has been very consistent. This is NOT true of the K-77s where a variation in output of 3 db or more is common when testing a small group of them. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 VTA???? Paaallleeeaaaasssseeeeeeee!!!!! These tweeters (to my ears......AGAIN) do not blend well with the rest of the Khorn. The K77 seems to blend better with the Khorn's sound. It's consistent. To me, Bob's tweeters have a completely different sound (no matter what volume level they may be set) then the Khorns other horns. It's like sticking a fat women's head on a skinny man's body (or something like that). Maybe it's just my system but that's the way I hear it and I've NEVER had a problem with cymbols dropping off. Where'd you guys come up with THAT one????? Gary, I think the differences in the way the sound of the tweeter is perceived is in the realm of subjectivity. To my ears, my Khorns have never sounded better. When I put in the BEC tweeters maybe three months ago, I had been listening to Beymas for a while. I did a double take on the realism in sound of the cymbal strikes and such coming out of the BEC tweeters. I switched back to the Beymas to make sure I was running them at the same level. To my ears, the BEC tweeters are a real complement to the Heritage sound, in a way that the Beymas are not. I'm not troubled that you don't care for the change. As I've been on this audio journey, it took me a while to learn the difference between "different" and "better". You are clear about that. This whole audio thing is about enjoying the music. What you have got in this experience is confirmation that your system already sounded the way you like it. I'd like to hear your system, but I already know it sounds very good. One thing about most of the systems among folks on this forum, they a genuine challenge to improve upon because they are already excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 VTA???? Paaallleeeaaaasssseeeeeeee!!!!! These tweeters (to my ears......AGAIN) do not blend well with the rest of the Khorn. The K77 seems to blend better with the Khorn's sound. It's consistent. To me, Bob's tweeters have a completely different sound (no matter what volume level they may be set) then the Khorns other horns. It's like sticking a fat women's head on a skinny man's body (or something like that). Maybe it's just my system but that's the way I hear it and I've NEVER had a problem with cymbols dropping off. Where'd you guys come up with THAT one????? Gary, I think the differences in the way the sound of the tweeter is perceived is in the realm of subjectivity. To my ears, my Khorns have never sounded better. When I put in the BEC tweeters maybe three months ago, I had been listening to Beymas for a while. I did a double take on the realism in sound of the cymbal strikes and such coming out of the BEC tweeters. I switched back to the Beymas to make sure I was running them at the same level. To my ears, the BEC tweeters are a real complement to the Heritage sound, in a way that the Beymas are not. I'm not troubled that you don't care for the change. As I've been on this audio journey, it took me a while to learn the difference between "different" and "better". You are clear about that. This whole audio thing is about enjoying the music. What you have got in this experience is confirmation that your system already sounded the way you like it. I'd like to hear your system, but I already know it sounds very good. One thing about most of the systems among folks on this forum, they a genuine challenge to improve upon because they are already excellent. Thank you Dee!!! I just can't understand why everyone is trying to make excuses for why I don't like them. I just don't! I don't know what else to say about the subject but thanks for understanding! Anytime you're in the DC area PLEASE come by for a listen. You're always welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I've now got about 20 - 25 hours on my La Scala's with these tweeters, and I too really like what I am hearing. Bear in mind, I was not disappointed with the K77-M's, but to my ears these tweeters are a little crisper, more detailed and just seem to blend very well with the ALKs and 511B's. I have the attenuation on the squawker set to 6.2 (4-x), which I've never really played with, btw. Don't know if it's the combination listed above, but to my ears it's very satisfying, not too forward and not too bright, but it definitely sounds clearer (clarity) to me. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 "I just can't understand why everyone is trying to make excuses for why I don't like them." Uh, because out of roughly a hundred people or more you're like the only one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Gary, "I just can't understand why everyone is trying to make excuses for why I don't like them. I just don't! " I don't think anyone is making 'excuses'... they are trying to understand what about them causes why you don't like them. At least that was what I was interested in. The reason that is interesting (to me anyway) is because if a person understands what are some of the underlying causes behind their likes and dislikes then making changes to a speaker, or their system in general, to 'improve' it may become a more educated process. And therefor it is less of a 'shot in the dark' in just fumbling around randomly trying things to see what happens. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Gary, Thank you for the invitation. It's been more than 25 years since I've been in DC, but would love to get there again sometime. If I can manage that, I'll sure check in with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 Gary, "I just can't understand why everyone is trying to make excuses for why I don't like them. I just don't! " I don't think anyone is making 'excuses'... they are trying to understand what about them causes why you don't like them. At least that was what I was interested in. The reason that is interesting (to me anyway) is because if a person understands what are some of the underlying causes behind their likes and dislikes then making changes to a speaker, or their system in general, to 'improve' it may become a more educated process. And therefor it is less of a 'shot in the dark' in just fumbling around randomly trying things to see what happens. Shawn Shawn, I tried to explain it the best way I could..........about 6 times in this thread alone! Still, that wasn't good enough so now it's my VTA???? I don't know how else to describe why I prefer the K77s but if anyone wants more details, pm me and give me your phone #. I'll be happy to try and describe it verbally. - Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Dee-- Since you have been using the pre-production BEC tweeters, your listening experiences are largely cymbalic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 " 'Could it be production variation in this run of Bob's tweeters? This seems like a lot of opinion variation among the very experienced listeners here...' "What did I miss? So far, everyone is reporting similiar results and using similiar adjectives to descibe what they are hearing -- except Gary. So, where exactly is all this "variation" in opinion between experienced listeners -- that sure isn't what I'm seeing." You're right, my bad. See edit. Still, it's a surprising difference from someone whose opinion about his other equipment is consistently in agreement with what other forum members think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Actually Larry, I was going to apologize to you. Reading your post again made me realize that you were offering up the possibility that a run of those tweeters might be out of spec. I just called Bob, and he in fact does test each tweeter before shipping. Gary, I thought you had K-77-M's. Bob says you have the old K-77s with the round alnico magnets. If that's true, then yeah -- big difference! The Eminence driver has an addtional 3dB of output and an extra 5000 cycles of extension. Those two things make for a very hot tweeter compared to what you are used to. You might consider getting a pair of Al's attenuators so you can enjoy the extra extension the new tweeters provide without being run out of the room. The VTA thing was something Craig brought up while we were talking last night. We were just wondering if something in the setup of your rig might be tilting the response. We were trying to be helpful. Alas, no good deed goes unpunished! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 Dean, Craig called me last night to suggest the VTA thing. I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it.[A] I do wish I had played a few CDs although I don't think it would have made a difference. My K77s are from 1976 and have the round magnet so yes, BIG difference. Not just how hot they are but how they sound. I would someday like to hear them with an attenuator toning them down and I'm sure I will. I'm guessing a good majority of Heritage users will own these and I'll have the chance to hear them in a different setting. Thanks for the suggestions. I do appreciate them and know they are sent with love.[] Your pal, Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. patrick Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 VTA???? Paaallleeeaaaasssseeeeeeee!!!!! These tweeters (to my ears......AGAIN) do not blend well with the rest of the Khorn. The K77 seems to blend better with the Khorn's sound. . . . . . . Gary, I think it is more likely that you simply did not pay enough $ for those Khorns of yours . . . . . remember the old saying that " . . . . you only get what you pay for!" Obviously , you didn't pay enough! No amount of tweeking is gonna change that . . . . sad but true. It would probably be better if you would ship those old freebies out to the left coast and buy another pair of Khorns. Heck, some of us out here would even split the shipping charges with ya. Relax, we still luv ya. EDIT: well, one again my attempt at humor falls flat. Perhaps my spouse is right, maybe my sense of humor really does seem weird to most normal people. I guess I will forever be labelled as just another fini-wannabe . . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Dee-- Since you have been using the pre-production BEC tweeters, your listening experiences are largely cymbalic. Fini, Yeh. Sometimes my experiences are emba-cymbalic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggerIsBetter Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 OK, last night I completed the definitive test and the new tweets are better! I listened to several Led Zeppelin albums On Vinyl Original releases Through a tube phono pre Passive Into tube amps At good loud levels and the Swedish bikini team was polishing my speakers the entire time while I was drinking my favorite beer and sipping a shot of my favorite tequilla And it sounded better than ever. I think this is final proof that they are better. I hope this puts an end to this pointless bickering and allowances for personal opinions. It doesn't get any more scientific than this. Everything above is sarcastic and intended for humor.....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 "I just see and hear something very different from the Klipschorn in the Jubilee." Exactly -- and you like what you hear right? I get the impression from you and others that the sound is "better". That's all I was really trying to say -- that you can make changes that are real improvements -- and that it's 'O.K.' for it not to sound like a 'Heritage' speaker anymore. Gary -- Craig and me were talking last night and Craig mentioned the VTA on the turntable -- wondering if maybe it might be responsible for what you're hearing? Allan, that was a low blow. I don't call what you listen to 'music' either. At any rate, the speakers are "there",and the more transparent they are the less aware of the speakers you are. VTA on the turntable? Dean and Craig giving advice on how to set up a table/arm/cartridge they've never even seen--now THAT's rich!! Turntables spin records, by the way. VTA is a function of TONEARM adjustment! SInce when did you guys become vinyl gurus too? LOL! Alan, You are out of line!! People making suggestions and trying to understand what Gary is hearing is not wrong in anyway. For your information I own 6 turntables and most likely a 1000 albums. I listen to vinyl all the time and KNOW WHAT VTA DOES AND HOW IT EFFECTS THE SOUND. I was just making a suggestion. I suggest you carry your nasty a$$ back to the BS section with these kinds of posts. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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