Are loudness and tone controls necessary?

[sfogg]

Pauln,

"who out there uses their tone controls to turn down the bass, for example?"

I don't usually use the bass control at all and leave it flat. On the occasions when I use the tilt control that will effect the bass range too.

I do however use EQ to cut peaks in the bass response.

Set12,

"If your electronics are truly great then one doesn't have to use such controls "

Nonsense. Tone controls shouldn't be about compensating for poor electronics, they are to help poor recordings.

Shawn

[Cal Blacksmith]

Unless you have the live musicians directed by the composer

or the real band that recorded the song, playing in your listening room, it is

all artificial anyway, use what makes you happy!

[SET12]

Shawn,

Did you ever think about what you might be missing? This is from the first post on this topic.

I was reading an old thread about the use of the loudness control and tone controls on some older gear. One forum member stated:

"I have found that people that live with very simple components almost NEVER go back to full featured ones. The only people that tend to argue these points are ones that still have this type of gear. Having lived with both, including an in-home recording studio with every imaginable component around, I can say that the transparency and closeness one feels to the performance is almost always increased with the removal of components from the circuit (with a few exceptions)."

I couldn't agree with this assessment more. Last year I had a BBE processor in my system. I went on and on defending it all the while spending too much time jumping up and down and adjusting for each song. When I got my new LaScalas, I realized that the BBE sucked. I removed it and never looked back. My Rega gear only has a volume control, and that's all I'll ever need.

Parrot, I owe you an apology. Live and learn.

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These are just opinions and you are certainly entitled to yours and everybody else theirs and that is ok.

But some members here may benefit from my 35 yrs of experience. And may find this experience interesting.

I have been through many different types of speakers and amplifiers. And only in the last few years have I found some bliss to this hobby after spending many tens of thousands of dollars for all sorts of gadgets including equalizers, DBXs, and other sound enhancements.

Through the yrs my power requirements fell like a rock I started with some 400 watts RMS/channel down to just 5.5 watts RMS/channel today! I have given nothing up, and have gained in all areas.

For instance the soundstage presentation from my modified Fortes is just gargantuan with lateral imaging usually 5-10 to the left and right of the loudspeaker positions imaging is literally through the side walls of my living room the speakers are spaced 9ft apart I sit about 11 ft away from center, the depth goes back and easy 80ft at times from my perception and maybe more. As some of this is responsiable from my DIY designed mono blocks.

I have no need of surround sound because 2 channel just envelops the listening room and the system can project an image just about anywhere including behind me. Plus it allows me to put the funds to better use pushing 2-channel performance even further.

When I started in this hobby my soundstage was usually between the loudspeakers and not a lot of depth and layering. There is a lot more to describe here but this description of soundstage performance from the Fortes is nothing but shocking to a lot of my local club forum members as I am the only Klipsch owner especially when they hear the size of it coming from a pair of horn loudspeakers of Klipsch design.

I use no preamp; I use to be a real proponent of active line stages until I decided to give no preamp a try. Do to the high efficiency of the Forte I was a little shocked at how much better it was with out the line stage I never looked back the gains were huge in the areas of dynamics, transparency and just about everything else and thats ok by me because the funds now go to my front end the CD player.

I might add that most people do not realize how little in the way of signal is actually fed to their preamp with an audio tappered volume control it is just 15% at the 12 o'clock position vs. the 60% that I use from my CD player.

Since my power amp has just two gain stages the signal path is very short, Just inchs with no switchs in the signal path think of all the switching in receivers especially the AV variety.

So if tone controls work for you thats great! Then use them but for some of use they get in the way of music.

SET12

[jbsl]

This is what this hobby is about to me, experimenting until I find the one I like the best. So I've wanted to get a pair of VRDs and a Peach with a good tube cd player for awhile now to try the no tone control theory out. Of course with my Luxman I would have the best of both worlds.

This will have to wait cause bills are really starting to kill me so I may have to sell my Ground Grid tube preamp and Moondogs to catch up with the bills.

Then maybe next year I can try the Peach and some VRDs.

[sfogg]

What I said is nonsense is the idea of using tone controls to compensate for poor electronics. That is nonsense and a bad idea. If that is how someone is using them they should get better equipment.

"I use no preamp; I use to be a real proponent of active line stages until I decided to give no preamp a try."

And that is a great way to go for two channel listening. 10 years ago I was doing the same thing with passive pre-amps and a Curcio tube DAC that had no problems driving them.

" Then use them but for some of use they get in the way of music. "

Then you have been using bad ones. The tone controls in my pre-amp involve zero additional circuitry. They are nothing more then software.

Shawn

[Cal Blacksmith]

SET12 said"

For instance the soundstage presentation from my modified

Fortes is just gargantuan with lateral imaging usually 5-10 to the left and

right of the loudspeaker positions imaging is literally through the side walls

of my living room the speakers are spaced 9ft apart I sit about 11 ft away from

center, the depth goes back and easy 80ft at times from my perception and maybe

more. As some of this is responsiable from my DIY designed mono blocks.

What sound stage???? There are darn few recordings that are recorded

with 2 microphones in a hall. The vast majority of recordings are done one

instrument or a few instruments at a time and mixed, processed, adjusted and

manipulated in many ways to get the final mix THERE NEVER WAS A SOUND STAGE! What

you hear is due to the sound man adjusting to get what he wanted. HOW CAN YOU

HEAR WHAT NEVER EXISITED?

All this flowery talk of depth, width and instrument

placement is so much hog wash! Each electronic circuit colors the music in a

specific way. If you like the coloration of one piece of equipment over the

next, that is fine, to each their own. If you like to be able to adjust the

color of your music with tone controls or loudness circuits, fine. If you would

rather not have them, fine.

I will agree though that huge amounts of power are not necessary

with Klipsch speakers. I prefer to run with about 25 watts for the head room

and the damping factor that having the power in reserve provides. I like my

bass to be clean not mushy or boomy; a very low power amp just does not have

the power to provide the necessary control to the woofer. A speaker is nothing

more than a linear motor and you need power to be able to position the motor to

specific locations quickly while overcoming the mass of the parts and the

resistance of the air. As Scotty on the first Star Trek said, I cannot change

the laws of physics

[Erik Mandaville]

"I have found that people that live with very simple components almost NEVER go back to full featured ones. I have found that people that live with very simple components almost NEVER go back to full featured ones. The only people that tend to argue these points are ones that still have this type of gear. Having lived with both, including an in-home recording studio with every imaginable component around, I can say that the transparency and closeness one feels to the performance is almost always increased with the removal of components from the circuit (with a few exceptions)."

I very much disagree. For years, I used nothing more than a CDP, a passive preamp, amplifiers and speakers. Other than for being able to adjust L/R balance, which was done by a mono volume control for each channel on the passive, I had no way of adjusting anything. However, as of the past year or so, I have been using a digital processor that is in my experience extremely comprehensive and flexible in terms of how it allows me to adjust not only tone, but MANY aspects of playback. With the sound I have right now, it would be very difficult for me to go back to what I had before. I also have a good Kenwood integrated amplifier from the 70s, which has balance and tone controls, and the response IMO is not compromised in any way by those features. Some recordings I have are poor, and I like being able to adjust the tone slightly as needed to improve them -- for me, which is what matters.

The terms 'transparency' and 'closeness' are also very HIGHLY subjective. Moreover, I'm not at all convinced that those traits or sound characteristics have a direct relationship to the number of components or features at one's disposal. In other words, less may not always translate into 'better' or 'more,'

In fact, the so-called 'complexity' I added to my system just prior to the digital processor -- Paul Klipsch's 'minibox' -- was without a doubt the greatest change for the better I have experienced. Its use required extra cable, jacks, another volume control, and another amplifier and speaker, and yet the sound it contributed was to me immediately arresting. It changed my way of thinking about and listening to music at home, and I learned that, with very good and well-thought-out circuit design, it's possible to have many ways of altering or changing the sound of a recording so that, on a personal or individual basis, it sounds better.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Cal Blacksmith:

"...Each electronic circuit colors the music in a specific way. If you like the coloration of one piece of equipment over the next, that is fine, to each their own. If you like to be able to adjust the color of your music with tone controls or loudness circuits, fine. If you would rather not have them, fine."

Absolutely. This statement couldn't be more in line with my own thinking.

BTW: Does the name Albert Paley ring a bell -- maybe even a hand-forged bell?

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

"Then you have been using bad ones. The tone controls in my pre-amp involve zero additional circuitry. They are nothing more then software."

This is still hard for me to wrap my brain around, although I do understand what you're saying. You've mentioned this to me in the past on a couple of occasions, and it's still a mysterious thing! Mysterious technology (to me), but awesome-sounding technology (to me, as well).

Erik

[sfogg]

Erik,

" Mysterious technology (to me), but awesome-sounding technology (to me, as well)."

For the DC-1s ads when it was released Lexicon used a quote from Arthur C. Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic..."

In a nutshell it is music as math.

When you hook your CD players digital output to the Lexicon the signal stays in the digital domain from your CDs into the Lexicon. That lets you bypass the D/As in the CD player as well as the analog stage in the player. The CD player just becomes a transport feeding the bits to the Lexicon. From there the Lex runs the signal through its Digital Signal Processing (DSP) chips where the Lexicon performs its processing (magic) while still in the digital domain. If the tone controls are set flat then that part of the 'math' simply isn't applied to the digital signal and there is no effect on the signal whatsoever. When you adjust the tone controls the DSP applies those filters to the digital signal accordingly and you get the changes to the tone without the potential negatives of analog controls.

After the DSPs the Lexicon converts the signal to analog and passes it on to the volume controls/line stages in the DC-1 then on to the amp. The end result is the signal is in the analog domain less then in a traditional CD->pre-amp->power-amp setup.

Shawn

[Deang]

I'm having trouble adjusting -- it doesn't as good as my normal setup. Something is happening in the upper registers that makes me want to grit my teeth. You didn't put any Solens in there did ya?

[Erik Mandaville]

"Something is happening in the upper registers that makes me want to grit my teeth. You didn't put any Solens in there did ya? "

You should be able to adjust that until it sounds right -- takes a little practice, and you haven't had it for very long, but there are things you can do to compensate.

Gotta love those Solens!

Erik

forgot the winky after Solens --

[sfogg]

"-- it doesn't as good as my normal setup. Something is happening in the upper registers that makes me want to grit my teeth. You didn't put any Solens in there did ya?:)"

Couple of hundred of them, just for you!

Make sure L/R is set to LARGE for crossovers in the speaker setup menu. Otherwise it would be rolling off the bass at whatever crossover point you have it set at which would seem to tip up the top end.

Also, I'm not sure I did a factory reset before sending that to you so if you haven't already checked check to see where the treble, bass and tilt controls are set in the Equalization menu. They are adjustable in 0.2dB increments with I think it is a +- 6dB range for Treble/bass and +/- 3dB for Tilt.

You can also directly adjust them without going into the menus by holding down the 'ACCY' button on the remote and hitting:

Effect Up/Down = Bass

Volume Up/Down = Treble

Menu Up/Down = Tilt

(Note: Different Key sequence for you Erik....)

Shawn

[Parrot]

I'm having trouble adjusting -- it doesn't as good as my normal setup. Something is happening in the upper registers that makes me want to grit my teeth. You didn't put any Solens in there did ya?

Are you speaking here of your Lexluthoricon? Is this part of your experimentation with tri-amping?

[SET12]

SET12 said"

For instance the soundstage presentation from my modified Fortes is just gargantuan with lateral imaging usually 5-10 to the left and right of the loudspeaker positions imaging is literally through the side walls of my living room the speakers are spaced 9ft apart I sit about 11 ft away from center, the depth goes back and easy 80ft at times from my perception and maybe more. As some of this is responsiable from my DIY designed mono blocks.

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What sound stage???? There are darn few recordings that are recorded with 2 microphones in a hall. The vast majority of recordings are done one instrument or a few instruments at a time and mixed, processed, adjusted and manipulated in many ways to get the final mix THERE NEVER WAS A SOUND STAGE! What you hear is due to the sound man adjusting to get what he wanted. HOW CAN YOU HEAR WHAT NEVER EXISITED?

All this flowery talk of depth, width and instrument placement is so much hog wash! Each electronic circuit colors the music in a specific way. If you like the coloration of one piece of equipment over the next, that is fine, to each their own. If you like to be able to adjust the color of your music with tone controls or loudness circuits, fine. If you would rather not have them, fine.

I will agree though that huge amounts of power are not necessary with Klipsch speakers. I prefer to run with about 25 watts for the head room and the damping factor that having the power in reserve provides. I like my bass to be clean not mushy or boomy; a very low power amp just does not have the power to provide the necessary control to the woofer. A speaker is nothing more than a linear motor and you need power to be able to position the motor to specific locations quickly while overcoming the mass of the parts and the resistance of the air. As Scotty on the first Star Trek said, I cannot change the laws of physics

My first experiance with huge a soundstage was some 15 yrs ago at a Chicago Audio Society meeting in a room that was 20ftx40ft Dennis Had of Cary Audio gave a Demonstration of his Single-Ended 211 tube monoblocks know as the 805 just 25 watts/channel the presentation extended thru the side walls of the 20ft length wall it also demonstrated to me that this particular amp was one of the most powerfull in the world tube or solid-state.

Not all amplifiers are the same some do not reproduce much stage width or depth kind of like watching a home movie! others are extordinary at soundstaging the Cary is a prime example. The Cary uses a transmitting Triode which is part of the story, There are other non transmitting tube amps that do as well to, as well as some solid state amps.

Not all recordings have the same width either some more some less the degree that one can hear it is dependent on how much ambient imformation ones system can reproduce and other qualities of the amplifier and loudspeaker capabilities placement of a system is also very important.

There are bad tube amps single-end and push-pull and bad solid state as well as good in each area.

Most people have ever rarely heard a 10 watt peak SET amp ever produce much in the way of punch in fact many are as you describe, are mushy mainly do to their supply implimation and a perhaps a few other things. My own amp is hardly a classical design

Many things in audio are heard and not yet measured and yet many are heard and then measured such as crossover distortion in a Class B amplifier.

No sound stage! Tell that to Dennis Had! Cause I'm not going to!

SET12

[Gilbert]

Loudness control, yes, of course.

Tone Controls, IMHO, No, they're not really required. As mentioned previously, the Blueberry convinced me of this.

[tychicum]

Loudness control, yes, of course. Tone Controls, IMHO, No, they're not really required. As mentioned previously, the Blueberry convinced me of this.

With a perfect room you could walk and walk and walk towards the back until the volume was just right.

With a perfect room ...

.

[edwinr]

I gave away my complex multi channel system some 3 years ago now. On reflection the money I spent on this system and the mutlitude of features that this system offered, including every tone control (DSP's etc) known to man, were an unnecessary extravagance that distracted me from the music.

I have had 2 channel since that time, but moving my Heresy surrounds in and out of the system as my mood dictates. 2 channel serves for both music and movies. The Heresys are currently hooked up via a Halfler style matrix decoding box. This adds some ambience for certain movies. I still debate the multichannel option.

But the whole essence of listening to, and enjoying music, is keeping the path between the disc and our ears as simple and uncluttered as possible. The more unnecessary electronics in the signal path, the more distance is created between you and the music. At the moment, 2 channel is the way to go. I'm beginning to realise that as you add more speakers in a room, you need more amplifiers, and maybe opening a Pandora's box of room related anomolies which in turn will require some form of DSP or tone control to correct.... []

Some cheaper systems, or those with bad room problems, may need to use tone controls. I haven't a problem with that. In that case, as finances and room permits, the ideal would be to upgrade to a system where tone controls are unecessary.

[SET12]

Edwinr,

I went through the same thing in the early ninties, One day I had a good audio buddy over, I was complaining of the sound! He walked over and looked at all the wireing and said my god man what do you expect! Look at all this wire and power cords he said, I said what can I do? He said remove the multichannel stuff! And we did! His arms were full with wire, we sat down and listened to real 2 channel and I said I'll be ----- From then on I have never mixed two channel with Video gear yes I watch movies using the 2 channel amps but I have to plug my DVD direct and I use the variable out direct feeding the amplifiers this way the grounds are seperated. Mark Levinson is one company that switchs grounds as well as hots. I am not against muti channel its just I can't afford the same quality as I do for 2-channel.

Simplicity goes along way!

There is alot of good points made on this topic, But the point of it all is "do what ever makes you happy "

SET12

[Cal Blacksmith]

Set12

Many of my comments were Tung in cheek. I have what I feel
is a very good 2 ch rig for the money I spent. I know there is better equipment
out there but at what price?

I have a VTL Ultimate pre-amp feeding a Sonic Frontiers
power 1 amp. The pre-amp is basically two mono pre-amps that only share one volume
knob and the case, even the power cords are separate. The amp is a stereo 6550
push pull rated at 25 watts and it feeds a pair of Cornwall 2s through 10 gauge copper wire. My
source is again, not the top of the line but good enough and it is a Regga
planar 3 with a Grace 747 arm and a Grace F-9e cart. Yes more money can be
spent here also but I have 95% of the sound for 10% of the money. For me this
is enough to stop the quest for more sound. The reaction I get from anyone who
hears my system for the first time is starting to wear a hole in the carpet
from where their jaws hit the ground.

Yes I have a very
wide and deep sound stage but the point I was making is that it is all a
figment of our imagination. We can pinpoint instruments that were never where
we hear them. We have the illusion of width and depth but it never was there to
start with.

I keep my 2 ch rig in a different room than my HT and the
two never mix. If I want music, it is tube 2 ch. If I want movies, it is with
the SS HT system. Both have their good points and bad points.

I dont think we met properly, Welcome to the forum and I
hope you enjoy us here!