SETs vs old SS � Listening experiments

[Colin]

Excellent review Pauln, very good descriptions, I especially like how your opinion changed with the music you prefer

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Refurbished tube or solid-state vintage equipment is a bargain compared to high end rip-offs

Leok, you comments are excellent as always, it is not the amount of THD that SET excels at, it is the second order type that we associate with acoustic instruments,

The low and wild impedance curve of the woofer can change the low frequency response of the speaker powered by tubes, not so when the same speaker is powered by solid-state

The best tube amplifier Ive heard on big ole horns (LaScalas and classic Klipsch Khorn loudspeakers) was the $6K Delta Studio. Even that monster was challenged in the low bass regions by my 70s vintage Harmon/Kardon 330B (single transformer) solid-state receiver and my $35 Sonic Impact 5066 class T digital amplifier.

Nothing Ive serious auditioned, in my own home, on my own equipment, for EnjoyTheMusic.com comes close to the incredible Pass X250 for bass, except maybe my 70s vintage 48-pound class A Pioneer M-22 dual monoblock (think mini-Threshold) solid-state amplifier. Even that does not push out the volume the Pass does.

I heard the NOSvalve KT88 VRD monoblocks on Mikes LaScalas and was amazed at their bass control!

The VRDs got me to hook up the Pioneer to my bass bin and my Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour monoblocks to the top section.

I dont remember Nikkos being that great either.

[SET12]

Thanks Audible Nectar,

Yes, Its very interesting!

I have never enjoyed audio more and never had as much fun! DIYing SET's is very enjoyable these are the simplest of amplifiers to build or design each of my SET's have a 200 joule power supply this way more energy than many main stream solid-state intergrated amplifiers or recievers.

I might add that I use no preamp CD is direct through my variable outputs on a Sony 37 lb X77ES I do the same for DVD audio as well my preamp was a Motiff this was a CJ product FET preamp some 1200$ in the 1980's new needless to say when I took it out and ran CD direct I was in shock how much everything was better with out it! I can say that I was a real proponet of active line stages untill I had this experiance! The preamp just got in the way of everything.

SET12

[seti]

SET12,

Thanks for posting your experiences with higher powered SET. I had 8wpc Canary Audio monoblocks and loved them but I have always wanted to hear 211 or 845 SET amp.

[Mr. Widget]

The ss vs SET comparison has a lot of

familiar themes. I suspect the SET simply has less objectionable and

possibly simply less distortion at low power (I'm talking 10s of

milliWatts at best here).

Although there may be better high frequency extension with the ss amp,

the ss distortion is accentuating those regions also by adding extra

frequencies (harmonic cross products due to the non-linear

amplification)....

I think Leo has hit on a major point here.

I run a tri-amped system with horns up top and conventionally ported

cone drivers below. My horns operate above 800Hz and I had been using a

Hafler 9505 on them. (Yeah I know kind of silly when one watt will

drive me from the room, but it was what was available.) I recently put

a pair of 845 based SETs in the system to replace the Hafler. The

improvement was not at all subtle. Measuring the system with CLIO to

get the channel and level balance exactly the same as before, I

could see that the frequency response curve was the same to within

0.5dB... subjectively you wouldn't think so though. The massive SS amp

putting out milliwatts sounded significantly harsher with a more

pronounced and forward midrange. The SS amp also had a soundstage that

was significantly more planar, masking the stage depth.

There is a lot of talk about SET magic... I have certainly heard it in

my system, but I expect a really top quality low powered SS amp would

have made a similar improvement. With most SS amps the distortion

starts to increase at super low power levels... with a Klipschorn, La

Scala, or the HF section of a horn loaded system you rarely use more

than milliwatts unless you are a speed metal head and don't mind

hurting yourself.

Widget

[Duke Spinner]

that's why crown rates THd at 1/4 watt , as well as full power .....

[SET12]

see below

[SET12]

And Thank You Seti!

Those tubes use a high efficency filament called a Thoriated Filament that give a glow that has an emotional appeal as well as a more powerfull expression of music but keep in mind that not all designs using these type of tubes yield great performance the Cary Single-Ended 805 as I have mentioned equiped with a 211 is very authoriative and a very huge sound stage often refered to as the sound stage king another maybe a 845 Bel Canto if you haven't heard a giant SET like these your in for a treat and you might not look back they can be very addicting as I'm hooked even with 10 watts I will in the near future be working on an 833 design nothing like the big Wavac maybe 30-60 watts this is a monster tube in contrast to an 845 or 211.

Here is my warm glow that cast shadows to bring me back into the 1920's and 30's listening to Jazz late at night!

[oldbuckster]

I don't want to be an old fart, but is this turning into a SET testimonial? Bring on the Pioneer and post your experiment results. I have the feeling results don't matter, many have their minds made up which is best, and it's not SS, Me I'm trying to learn something here, and I know this, there a 3 types of power in play, SET, VRD's, and SS, each camp has their reasons why they think their power supply is best, many reasons, all valid, some interesting, some too technical for me to digest, but it is all information for me to better understand what way to go with a power unit, So I welcome the comparisions.................

[Audible Nectar]

I don't want to be an old fart, but is this turning into a SET testimonial? Bring on the Pioneer and post your experiment results. I have the feeling results don't matter, many have their minds made up which is best, and it's not SS, Me I'm trying to learn something here, and I know this, there a 3 types of power in play, SET, VRD's, and SS, each camp has their reasons why they think their power supply is best, many reasons, all valid, some interesting, some too technical for me to digest, but it is all information for me to better understand what way to go with a power unit, So I welcome the comparisions.................

Oldbuckster:

This isn't so much about "what is best" but "what you and we like." If you view this through that "what we like" prism, these kinds of discussions ARE enlightening.

And the 10 watt SET is a newer concept around here.....most who do SET here are playing 1 to 3.5 watt amps. The presentation/discussion of a 10 watt option is interesting, at any rate....as is the revisiting of vintage SS. It's ALL gouda with me[]

[oldbuckster]

But that's my point, one can never compare anything here that it doesn't turn into what's best..............doesn't matter what is being discussed, I read the thread as an experiment between SET vs old SS, but it seems to me it is slowly becoming a SET discussion, which I should drop out of, because I lack any knowledge on the subject............guess I should learn how to read better, I missed the point..........again........Just trying to learn something...................but, deep down I did learn.................carry on...............

[DrWho]

I'm visiting my parents this weekend so dont' have my Dope from Hope, but PWK had an entire article talking about what he called a "rubber measuring stick" (not sure if that's a generic term or not - I'm not an old fart) []. There are also some other articles I've read from other wackos that adress the psychoacoustics of the situation as well. Anyways, the whole point being that it's more important to compare against the real live sound because there are some very decieving things that can happen in a straight up AB between equipment.

I'm certainly not trying to discredit the importance of AB testing, but I find Paul's initial comments rather interesting - moreso when looking at the bigger picture. Deciding which setup sounds more pleasing seems to be a rather easy task (usually), but how does one determine if the differences between gear are the revealing of different flaws elsewhere in the system, or sonic attributes of the devices themselves?

Or to be more specific...Paul has enjoyed the synergy of his system for 4 years (holy crap). If he started out with the SS amp instead of the SET 4 years ago, would he have arrived at the same turntable, cartridge, speaker position, etc etc...? Assuming he arrived at a different system synergy; of the two synergies (the hypothetical and the actual one), which one would have sounded more pleasing? Would dropping the SET amp into the hypothetical synergy have the same results?

[Duke Spinner]

As I keep saying ...

System Synergy ...

is Everything

the most valuable thing you can learn ..

is ..what sounds good ..

with What ...[:|]

[Duke Spinner]

lets not forget Impedance Matching

a big part of Synergy

[Rivendell61]

lets not forget Impedance Matching

I will hazard a guess that Mr Spinner intended to convey the importance of something like "optimizing the impedance relationship"--rather than advocating the specific technique of 'Impedance Matching'?

Mark

[Duke Spinner]

very perceptive..........

[kaiser SET say]

Rob, give it up we are old farts[]

Good call Rivendell61 but I think most of us were onto Duke!

Terry, glad to see you redeemed yourself as I was right beside you when those VRD's were driving JW's speakers to very nice "BASS" volumes[]

Now that Seti sent the Canary's to a new home I too can't wait to here his 60WPC Allen's once they get here from the re-builder[]

Sounds like IB will need to bring his big ears on down to LR for a vibrating cochlea party[]

Pauln, I was never a Nikko fan but my first receiver I bought myself in Germany was the Pioneer SX-1050 so I'm really wanting to know what you hear and think of the 6500[]

[Duke Spinner]

outta boredom with the big stuff, i have been rotating a SX-780, a Kenwood KT-5500, an SX-3950, a SAE something or other reciever. ... 30 - 60 watts

know what ...??

they all sound 10x bettern' my nieghbors new Denon

they all have bigger P.S., too

i used to have a buncha SAE stuff, sounded great in the day...

Saaay ... remember Spectro Acoustics ..??..poor mans SAE

[pauln]

Update: The Pioneer SA 6500 (50W) should be on the way, and if I am lucky in the next couple of hours, a Yamaha CA 600 integrated should be on the way as well (35W).

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OldBuckster, in your first note you suggested that musicians should be better at evaluating these things. I agree with that. I am a musician, have played the clarinet, piano, and rock, blues, jazz guitar for 35 years, am currently teaching myself the violin, alto sax, and trumpet. I played publicly for the first time in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Houston almost 20 years ago sitting in for a few weeks with George Thomas & Friends at what used to be Wall Street a jazz club. A little later I was the lead guitar in Caroline Wonderlands first band (shes big in Houston). I was a regular at The Outpost, which is the original bar built near NASA back in the early 60s a blues roadhouse. Nothing more I like better than live play, improvising with musicians I have never met playing songs Ive never heard. Its natural for me, and I dont like them to spoil it by telling me the key, or the modulations, or anything else in advance.

The purpose of this thread was really an experiment in communication about music and its playback. It is possible for knowledgeable technical folks like engineers to discuss the physics and hardware to a high degree of mutual intelligibility. It is much more difficult to express ones personal sense of what they are hearing in a way that others can relate to. I dont like to resort to using the typical audiophile vocabulary because I dont think these words ring true with most listeners. I would encourage others to try to use common language to describe their experience even if it needs to be a little wordy to get the ideas across, I find these much more interesting and informative than shorthand audiophile speak.

Dr.Who, you ask a good question about the sequence of system components acquisition. Here is mine:

1972

Panasonic all in one table/amp with out bound speakers

OK for the high school dorm.

1976

B&O 1900 w\MMC 4000 pickup

Yamaha CR 600 Receiver (30W)

Klipsch Heresys

My first college system, stayed this way for years.

1985

Added a Carver M500t power amp (250W) driven by the Yamaha preamp

As SS amps go this one seemed pretty smooth, never got to use much above 3W, but the depth and power lurking in the box did manage to make the Heresys sing pretty well. Kept this for a long time as well.

2002

Jumped off the deep end after much research and bought the Wright WPL Phono/Pre and WPA 3.5 SETs without ever having heard them. Still with the B&O table and Heresys.

2004

Jumped off the deep end again, ordered a new pair of black LaScalas with the AL-4 networks and gave my Heresys to my folks (along with an early 70s Sansui 6500 and Sony CD player). I waited for the LS for about 6 weeks with no speakers in the house, wondering how they would sound (but just knowing they would be great).

Today

Trusty built like a tank 30 year old B&O table with upgraded and expensive MMC6000 pickup

Wrights

LaScalas

So, dont be mistaken that I started with SETs, is was SS before all the way. Part of the reason I am playing with the old SS now is the way the Sansui sounded before I gave it to my folks it sounded pretty good. The cost of these old amps is so low that I figured I would give my SET ears a break and review their sound.

I have high hopes for the Pioneer. Wish me luck on the Yamaha

Pauln

[Duke Spinner]

flash back ..

1974 ..

Lafayette 60wpc reciever

Utah's..

with a 15"

garrard zero 100

1976

crown d-60

jbl l-36

empire 698

a big step in equipment

then i went to a SAE 2200 100 wpc .. now we're rockin' ...

good luck with that Yammie

some are kinda bright ...

[SilverSport]

pauln,

I had a Yamaha CA-610 II (45wpc) and meters but very similar to yours...sounded excellent with kg2s so it should sing with Heresys or more...enjoy!

Bill