jbsl Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 I'm a big Luxman fan so don't forget they made some great stuff also in the 70! I've always had some Luxman gear in my system but it was usually a preamp or receiver not a amp. Go check out the Luxman stuff on Ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote user="leok" I believe this is really a question of low distortion at low power, not SS vs SET. I have a real tough time distinguishing between my SETs and the Crown D-45 (except of course that the Crown can get louder). The Crown D-45 is made for horn-loaded speakers. It has very low distortion at low power. As an engineer, I trust it more than I do the SETs, but then, since I can barely tell the difference I enjoy both equally. The Crown cost 1/5 what I paid for the SETs. glad your enjoying your Crown, Leok...[] [] [] ya know ....SS can be a hard sell to you SET crowd thank you for the insight you prevuiosly gave me as to listening for distortion on Any amp .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Other than a 10 minute experience with Colin's Paramours I don't have any SET experience. I am, however, loving my VRD's! Having said that I sure would like to get my hands on a Sansui G8000. This was my first receiver (1978), and I sure would like to get another one. It was a monster, and had a great phono stage. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 G-8000 Killer ....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 I'm a SET owner who also loves great sounding solid-state amps, having owned SS McIntosh and Carver (and hearing quality Crown amps in my bro's system). I've also heard Luxman, Tandberg, Nakamichi, Pioneer, Yamaha, and Technics amplification with Klipsch over the years, and the detail and accuracy with both classical and rock music was spectacular IMO! My dad also owned (IIRC) a Sansui G-6000 DC receiver in the late '70s that even today still excites me everytime I see one on eBay (wish he had kept it). These are some examples of exceptional transistorized amplifiers...unfortunantly all the Nikko power amps I've come across while in the Army during the early '80s were IMHO not very good at all in terms of both construction and in sound quality (don't know anything about their older models). This is just my observation, and I'm sure others find Nikko to be acceptable. All I know from auditioning several Nikkos (can't recall their models) with Heresys and Cornwalls is that they didn't agree with me aurally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Stormin, I've been working my way up to this on the ss side. Not that I'm biased, it's because I can buy vintage ss for so much less. I'm having a ball with this and spending hundreds, not thousands of dollars. Each manufacturer has it's own 'sound' I've found so far. I've got a pair of H/K 930's, a 730, a Pioneer SX-880, a Sansui 7070 as well as a G-7700 and a Marantz 2325(just got it yesterday, needs capacitor work). Just bought another Sansui, the 8080db which will plop its box on my doorstep in the next few days. I know the comparison is incomplete, however, these Sansuis are very impressive with their 'headspace' and dynamics. I'll get that 2325 wrenched and see what can be better soon but until then I'm liking my G-7700. She's playing "King of the Hill" so far. Darned 930 H/Ks aren't far behind. Yeah I forgot about the HK 930 i have here in the ss arsenal. She is a performer as well but not quite in the league of the 2325 or the G8000 IMHO. I dont think the vintage ss is the end all in music reproduction by any means. But as you say it is very reasonably priced and alot of fun to listen too. And actually quite pleasant on the old horns. I did forget about Luxman. The minty L-580 integrated i have here is mighty powerful and smooth as silk on my chorus II's. Dont have any experience with SET but obviously they have a huge fan following. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Good review and comments all around, and an interesting thread...... I think Silversport has done just fine. I own several Mac 250s as well as four MC30s - as well as having a fair amount of listening time on VRDs as well. I think it's safe to say that Bill would have been very good with either the JM/VRD or Mac tube setup. Main difference is that he saved $$$. Maybe a little different presentation, but "same league"/quality soundwise. He's got the BB/VRD for the smooth tube slam, the Eico for midrange bloom. Sounds to me like a balanced ticket [] The 30's he missed out on (that I do have) probably would have sounded very good too - except he would have had to rebuild 'em first. Unbeknownst to my fellow forum member and seller, they had been modified slightly and had incomplete resistor work - so it's probably best that I ended up with them. I have plans for these.....and they are most certainly good source amps to rebuild. As for the MC250, it is a very nice SS amplifier on Klipsch (as are the autoformer laden brethren), but in no way duplicates the midrange bloom or transparency that the tubes do. You'll get better bass "slam" with a 250 or relative vs. tube, while still rounded and "tubelike" in its overall presentation - just a bit more grainy and without the transparency. I like the 250 (and use them in my HT), but I prefer tubes for music. There is good in both approaches, depending on what you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 I didnt think VRD's were SETs or SS. They are in another classification i believe.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 I'm a big Luxman fan so don't forget they made some great stuff also in the 70! I've always had some Luxman gear in my system but it was usually a preamp or receiver not a amp. Go check out the Luxman stuff on Ebay. JB, My brother! Not all SS amps designed in the70's- very early 80's were created equal. Especially the big'ens! I still own my (retired) first quality amp perchase, the '68 Marantz Mod15's at 60wpc. Saul's first SS effort. When the 150wpc+ amps were introduced, I just had to have that kind of headroom. Did the BGW, (? earthquake sound) Phase 400, DC300's, and the like. Currently, I run a couple of Luxman D-117's in BTL with a tube front. I just love the "ugly old bricks". Nice non-grainy, warm sounding, with much headroom. At the time, the **** called them Mac Killers. I call them "The poor mans Mac". I may bi or tri amp at some point, but the 54lb pc bricks are here to stay. Am considering new caps for the old girls. Gulp! [:$] e Regards, Terry PS: Back to the thread......Don't think that a SET/SS comparison can be made by listening to one SET rig, vs. a few (possibly inferior) SS power amps. However, many points and observations from the original post are valid and accurate IMHO. Do my SS power amps open-up at 60db at the listening position? I wouldn't know. 60db is only a place that I pass by on the way to 100db+.[] Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Do my SS power amps open-up at 60db at the listening position? I wouldn't know. 60db is only a place that I pass by on the way to 100db+.[] Terry LMAO! Good one. I see we have another rocker in the house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Good review and comments all around, and an interesting thread...... I think Silversport has done just fine. I own several Mac 250s as well as four MC30s - as well as having a fair amount of listening time on VRDs as well. I think it's safe to say that Bill would have been very good with either the JM/VRD or Mac tube setup. Main difference is that he saved $$$. Maybe a little different presentation, but "same league"/quality soundwise. He's got the BB/VRD for the smooth tube slam, the Eico for midrange bloom. Sounds to me like a balanced ticket [] The 30's he missed out on (that I do have) probably would have sounded very good too - except he would have had to rebuild 'em first. Unbeknownst to my fellow forum member and seller, they had been modified slightly and had incomplete resistor work - so it's probably best that I ended up with them. I have plans for these.....and they are most certainly good source amps to rebuild. As for the MC250, it is a very nice SS amplifier on Klipsch (as are the autoformer laden brethren), but in no way duplicates the midrange bloom or transparency that the tubes do. You'll get better bass "slam" with a 250 or relative vs. tube, while still rounded and "tubelike" in its overall presentation - just a bit more grainy and without the transparency. I like the 250 (and use them in my HT), but I prefer tubes for music. There is good in both approaches, depending on what you like. Nec, I agree with everything you said, except for one. ........."He's got the BB/VRD for the smooth tube slam,"........ Don't think that one can use the word "slam" and "tube" in the same sentence. Regards, tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted August 5, 2006 Author Share Posted August 5, 2006 The Pioneer SA 6500 is on the way, next up for review in a few days... Pauln Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Kinda looks like my ol' JVC. Which has had most the caps replaced except the PS caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Nec, I agree with everything you said, except for one. ........."He's got the BB/VRD for the smooth tube slam,"........ Don't think that one can use the word "slam" and "tube" in the same sentence. Regards, tc Don't think for a minute that this combination can't provide some slam! Can it do it like a 500W SS amp? No, but it'll sound a hell of a lot better in the process! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Set up the Pioneer, let's hear what you think about it, be fair now, don't be swayed by your own set up................................That Pioneer reminds me of a Kenwood intergrated I use to own, very nice, very dependable, ran ESS speakers with no problem, the only comment I have is, found after getting KG4's, I found 80 watts per was a tad light on power...........Hook it up, and let us know what you think................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 ...I thought that was slam...hmmm...maybe I should listen to even MORE SS watts...[]...seriously those VRDs have plenty of slam but I will give you that perhaps some really powerful good stuff of the SS variety might surprise me...[] []...anyway, didn't mean to get off target by talking about other than SS and SET... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 572-10 / 811-10 10 watt SET Mono Blocks that use 572-10 or 811-10, An LED biased 6EA7 driver with a GZ37 rectifier tube. Class A2 zero volts bias with a diode connected filament to ground that is one anode to each side of the filament then the cathodes are commoned to ground so you end up with a little negative bias when this trick was installed because I did not want to reduce the life of the tube by grounding the negative of its DC filament supply and use anymore filament current in the process the result was the amps dynamics going into orbit. Terry wrote: PS: Back to the thread......Don't think that a SET/SS comparison can be made by listening to one SET rig, vs. a few (possibly inferior) SS power amps. However, many points and observations from the original post are valid and accurate IMHO. And he's right here! Hi Pauln, Thanks much for your experiances that you have posted here I to am a SET lover some 15 years ago I heard a Cary 805 211 equiped single-ended amplifier that profoundly changed my audio direction I couldn't afford them by any means but I knew that some day I could build something like them because I have the skill to. Not being an Engineer but having some Technical training has allowed me to think out of the box with these SETs they are not classicly designed like other SETs. There are other SET designs that are just as good as I feel these are such as ART AUDIO's which are not classicly designed either when I say classicly I mean chokes small and small supplies often they are of very high quality though I have learned how to use very large bulky electrolytics and dispense with their uglyness and then in the final stage use very high quality polyprops in the final stage of my supplies. I do this with out any sacrafice that I know of by diode decoupling basicly and sure there will be people that may frown on this method but it works for me and has impressed many that have heard it including recording engineers and musicans a like. I also discovered a trick that lead me to fantastic transparency which may lead to a patent I hope which was discovered while I was pursueing an idea that I had for my 900 joule phonostage power supply this of course was passed on to my amps. The noise of this supply is over the diodes but with the bulk electro volume of capacitance it enough for a pretty low noise floor all the supply sections are isolated highly from one another by use of the diodes this allows for great current swings of the likes most people I spose have not heard from a SET I find that alot of SET supplies poor for speed and dynamics I believe push-pull fares better for dynamics when conventional supplies are used but push-pull can fare even better using a supply like this as well! I once pulled a 100 ohm power resistor out of the supply chain that was feeding a push-pull pair of EL84's the owner of which said that if I attemped to put it back he'd brake my arm off! what I learned is yes you can have a very low noise supply but there is a cost! That cost equates to speed dynamic punch and imformation that can be veiled by a supply or even left out. I recently had a couple of Jolitas here one was a 30 watt hybrid and the other a 100 watt hybrid both highly musical and both good canidates for Klipsch's 5 yrs ago I would of laughed at someone telling me that I was going to be a proud owner of a klipsch and there are plenty of serious audiophiles that do laugh at them all the time! But not here! Back to the Jollita's with some comments we found the 30 watt Jollita ran out of steam fast and could play the SETs louder which proved again the 5x of SET's power rating is likely true when comparing solid state watts the little jollita was nice but it did not reveal the imformation that the SET was and its soundstage was not as deep or wide it keep the music between the speakers the verticle imaging was not as tall harmonics seemed mono chromed as I like to refer to solid state harmonics in contrast to SETs or even push-pull tube gear you might say I like Technicolor whether it is right or wrong it envoles me in the music and is just one aspect of a SET. The Bass was nice for an amp of this size but it was no match for the SET amps they where more extended including the top end which I expected more from harmonic imformation was almost non existent very little in the way of ambiant cues know their is better solid state out there in this reguard! The Jollita 100 watter now this is one nice integrated amp with remote well made 750$ retail very large torrid power transformer which caused me to take a breath and a gulp I knew this was going to have more of everything. My buddy bought it for his wifes living room system. Well now we can play louder than the SETs but funny thing other than more energy for the bass it was much the same sounding as its little brother again the soundstage width was just between the speakers as though as I was watching an 8 mm film I have read of this but untill I really heard it from these amp comparisons it never really entered my mind when listening to other systems in contrast to the SETs here the Jollita's presentation size was half or less.Harmonics were much the same as the little brothers I was surprised at this especially the bass from this amp I half expected the jollita to do really well subjectively I always knew that my SET amps bass was very good especially with the opinions of others here but the big Jollita just did not have the low end extension of my SETs very surprised here clearly the SETs were way more informative and extened as well as more involving In the words of a 20 yr old here that owns the 30 watt Jollita his final words where upon one last listen to the SET Monos of one of his favorite recordings was "Thats Just Beautifull" I do love a wide deep sound stage there are many solid state amps that can do the same but these SET amps are amazing if I do say so my self. Sometimes the latteral extension from the Forte's is several feet outside the boundries of my listening room and its 18 ft wide 14 ft deep. Speakers are 9 ft apart 2 1/2 ft from the back wall that has full corners I use corner tunes and Monster Pannels behind me that are lead lined these where some 300$ retail I picked up for 50$ each they have been invalueable to me. I belong to www.diyaudio.com also known as SET12 below is a recent comment from an Engineer at www.tubelab.com he takes SETs to extream a vist to his site will put a few smiles on your faces! any way here is a post that I sent to him today as far as the bass of my amps as a guy was complaining that SETs bass is weak. IMHO it all is design! quote: Originally posted by tubelab.com CLEAN bass that these Hammonds put out. If you believe that SE amps don't have good bass, try these transformers, add a little CFB if you want (not necessary but it helps). Hook up some big speakers, and prepare to have your neighbors complain! It happened to me! I got a call from my neighbor that her pictures were moving on her walls!Our living rooms seperated by two garges! Acoustic energy traveled into my wall from my modified Klipsch Forte's up to the roof truss and down it back into her wall! Talk about transient response and people tell me that SE has no bass! I use no EQ and have no sub! Bass produced from my 28lb Hammond 1642's from 10 watts of 572-10's running Class A2 with no CFB!SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Terry - While the VRDs won't give you bass like your Luxmans will, the VRDs will give you bass. Full, stout, musical bass. For stand-alone tube amps, quite amazing, really. My friend Ian, who is a Primus fan to the core, agrees wholeheartedly - and the bass attributes of the VRDs was a major reason for "pushing" him that way - along with wanting the other desireable elements of tube gear. Something else about the VRDs I find interesting: I see forum members with ALL musical listening tastes being just thrilled with them. From rock to classical to everything in between, they satisfy. From my listening time with them here, they do an awful lot well - and that's with the stock tubes. I can only imagine how good they would be with NOS brand tubes. And I am not normally the type to use "tube slam" in a comment either - that was until I spent a couple of hours in Craig's basement - then another 15 minutes picking my bottom jaw from the floor. If I could get the VRD bass with MC30 mids in one unit, it might well be the perfect tube amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 SET12 - That all sounds reeeeeeeal interesting. 10 watt SET?? Things that make ya go hmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Terry - While the VRDs won't give you bass like your Luxmans will, the VRDs will give you bass. Full, stout, musical bass. For stand-alone tube amps, quite amazing, really. My friend Ian, who is a Primus fan to the core, agrees wholeheartedly - and the bass attributes of the VRDs was a major reason for "pushing" him that way - along with wanting the other desireable elements of tube gear. Something else about the VRDs I find interesting: I see forum members with ALL musical listening tastes being just thrilled with them. From rock to classical to everything in between, they satisfy. From my listening time with them here, they do an awful lot well - and that's with the stock tubes. I can only imagine how good they would be with NOS brand tubes. And I am not normally the type to use "tube slam" in a comment either - that was until I spent a couple of hours in Craig's basement - then another 15 minutes picking my bottom jaw from the floor. If I could get the VRD bass with MC30 mids in one unit, it might well be the perfect tube amp. ........."Don't think that one can use the word "slam" and "tube" in the same sentence"....... I was being kind of a wise a** with that statement.[] I had the opportunity to listen to VRD's for a while, hook up the Lux, and then back to the VRD's. Can't argue that the VRD's sounded like they "had a pair"! They sounded very authoritative IMHO. Very nice amps. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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