Crossover Network Questions

[bodcaw boy]

Roy,

Here's a little story I heard once:

There was this mule wagon driver and a bystander. The bystander asked the

driver "how do you get a mule to do what you ask him to do?". The driver

replied, "You have to treat them kind and gentle". He then picked up a board

and clobbered the mule right between the eyes. He bystander asked "If you

have to treat them kind, why did you do that?". The driver replied, "Yes, you

have to treat them kind, but first you have to get their attention!".

Now that I have your attention, do I still need the board? I sure hope not!

Here's the PCFILT circuit editor schematic of the passive network you posted

for the Jubilee. Please look at all the part values to check that I have them

entered correctly. There may be a simple error in the schematic you posted or

I may have entered something wrong. Once you agree that the values and

topology are correct I will email the computer simulation.

Al K.

and my (hee haw) grandfather once (hee haw) told me:

(hee haw) don't argue with (hee haw) an idiot, (hee haw) then there will (hee haw) be two.

your arrogance proceeds you. in the morning, grab two humble pills, take a glass of orange juice and some pastry, like a bagle or honey bun, flush the two pills down the toilet, eat the pastery and drink the juice and see if that helps then, contact me in 6 months.

bye by now.

roy

[Georges]

Good evening,

I believe that we are loosing a little bit of sense in here. I donnot believe that there is any universal true quality test on acoustics since human behavior is THE main input. Of couse I am talking about coparing relatively equal products. I spend sometime sometime ago building the ALK-Cornwall crossovers. I sold them 15 days afterwards. That donnot means that they are bad. Some people like them some not. The same is with the Klipsch crossover, some they like them some not. The issue is your ear your amplifier and the music you hear. It reminds me this discussion also the eternal debate oil caps or hi-tech polypropylene. I got all species original oil from the Klipsch new from Jensen, Hovland and Auricaps. I tried them all. I donnot care their ECR if it s 200 2000 or 200000(I send once to AL on Hovland and one Jensen to measure them). I donnot liked the hovlands so I stick with the Jensens. Does that means that Hovlands are bad. No only there are not for my ears, same for some others.

So trying to prove that Hi-Tech approaches can achive the best recults it is not always true. One thing is measure in the bench something. Another is to put it in an apparattus. It is not the same thing.

I am of the Japanese approach; tuning the crossover and other components by ear not simulations. i did a lot of simulations in my life to believe them.

cheers

george

[Al Klappenberger]

Royboy,

I will gladly takeup the honey bun diet if you will. You won't want to hear this, but we are two of a kind!

BTW: I think I'll email you the computer analysis of your Jubilee crossover anyhow. I'll bet you have never seen it!

Al K.

[Al Klappenberger]

Georges,

I am not too surprised you didn't like my Cornwall network. It was an improvement over the "stock" networks but not enough of an improvement to make it's cost worth it. That's why I only made about 12 sets and quit making them. Dean took over and he has quit on them too. They ware also a pain in the butt to build!

As to Jensen caps, I believe they sound good to people who's tweeter is too hot. They can be simulated with an L-pad!

Al k.

[popbumper]

This has all been very interesting, and not to get in "cross-wise" (no pun intended), Al's frustration reminds me strongly of the frustration I felt when I first started developing K-stacks. I had had some dialogue with Dean, who was seemingly very much "on-line" with me, until the point at which he completely ignored my questions and/or requests to assist me in evaluation. I too "called him out" on the forum, which then led to some "distasteful exchanges", none which I care to revisit. The whole scenario of course left me feeling the same way, similar in a sense of "here's a guy who is an expert/here's something I can do/let's share our common capabilities and learn from them".

Given the current disparity between Roy and Al, it gives me an opportunity to speak up - and it strikes me as particularly "sad" that folks with a comon interest can't "play well together". I am no judge here; certainly I have not been the best example, but watching others involved in this manner seems odd at best.

Before I create any unwanted "hot spots", let me make CLEAR:

1) I have resolved any/all differences with Dean, this is NOT to reflect anything bad on him, I was merely stating my own point of view of my own past situation.

2) I am not choosing sides or stating "who I think is right", just merely observing the quite surprising similarity.

3) I cannot speak for anyone else, I am a small fry at best, and am in no way as skilled as these gentlemen on the subject matter, nor would I ever claim to be.

4) I DO agree that anger and frustration CAN and WILL get ahold of you and bend you over hard if you let it. This is NOT the best practice.

5) I hope everyone can work it out to the benefit of all. Seems like a whole lot of folks here are "fighting for a spot on the island", and there ain't a whole lot of room on it.

6) I am frankly surprised at what has happened here. It's been a while since something like this has happened.

Chris

[Deang]

Chris, I'm not "an expert", I'm "small fry" too!

I thought our exchange was much livelier and entertaining than theirs. I ran across it the other day doing a search on something, and it was a hoot reading through it again.

[popbumper]

OK Mr. small fry!! Livelier and more entertaining? Does this mean I am Jerry to your Dean []?

Chris

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

What happened between Roy and I is not unusual, it's just this time it was in public! The thing is that two people who have a working knowledge of some subject MUST have some level of arogance in order not to be BSed by people who know nothing. You run into that type of person all the time. If you don't, you will be totally confused all the time! At some point though, usually when something the other guy says fills a hole in your understanding that blends in well with other facts you beleive, you have to set the arogance aside and start to listen! Roy is not yet willing to accept that I might know more about this then he does!

That having been said, I did make one big mistake, I should have emailed him directly rather than going through a middle man who will remain unnamed! The problam was, how do you tell a big-shot engineer that his design is no very good without insulting him? It was obvious however that he was not willing to work with me on an extreme-slope design for his "baby" no matter what I did, so I had no choice but call him out! It failed so far, but it may not be over yet. He may still realize that there may be somebody who knows more than he does about passive filters. I think it is important to Klipsch for him to do that.

Are you listening HeeHaw?

Al K.

[Guest " "]

col·lab·o·rate P Pronunciation Key (k-lb-rt)

intr.v. col·lab·o·rat·ed, col·lab·o·rat·ing, col·lab·o·rates

To work together, especially in a joint intellectual effort.

To cooperate treasonably, as with an enemy occupation force in one's country.

[mark1101]

As long as this is happening in public, then I have a couple of questions I think is fair to ask....for more information.

How does the cinema version of the Jubilee work? Does it rely on outboard crossover electronics?

What was the date that that Jubilee cinema product came into existence?

[Guest " "]

Here is a file that has the 3 way version of the Jubilee and some delay/frequency information.

CinemaCrossovers.pdf

[Al Klappenberger]

Mark,

All I know about the cinema version is that I think that is the one Coytee (Richard) bought. It came with no crossover, so he also bought a fancy EV digital unit to do the crossover and time delay correction. The only passive crossover for it is the one that Royboy posted in another thread. The active is the only way to go at this time!

Al K.

[popbumper]

Al:

Not to question your capability in any way - but if Roy does NOT want your inputs, there is no amount of pleading, begging, being nasty/being nice that's gonna make a difference. To quote another phrase - "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

Learned this ALL TOO WELL in life....sometimes, you just DON'T get it your way, regardless of how senseless it all seems. Do I think that's a good thing? NO, but you do get to a point finally where you realize you CAN'T change a thing....

...and you move on....

Chris

[Al Klappenberger]

Chris,

Actually it's his input that I wanted! This was tried by a middle-man and the results were basically "don't bother"! And to answer your comment directly, yes. There is no nice way to tell a big-shot engineeer that his design stinks except to just say it! The design he posted is so bad that it is very difficult to beleive that it didn't contain typo errors. We even asked him to check the part values as I keyed them into the computer simulation. The request was ignored. That made me MAD! I tried again publicly and, as you see, no response. HEY HeeHaw: Why is it so bad? Why don't you take this opportunity to make me look foolish? Explain why it looks so bad?

Al K.

[Deang]

O.K. Al, maybe that's enough, please.

[Al Klappenberger]

Dean,

Is it enough? It is certainly enough to get me mader and mader! If I get much mader I will post the plots of just how bad that network is. THEN it will be enough! "Experts", what a joke!

The person who is suffering here isn't me, it Coytee. I am quit sorry about that becasue he deserves better!

Al k.

[sfogg]

Al,

"If I get much mader I will post the plots of just how bad that network is. THEN it will be enough! "Experts", what a joke!"

You are looking at one part of a system. The thing should be judged as part of a whole, not an end unto itself.

You don't have the rest of the system to judge. For all you know whatever it is you don't like about the electrical performance of the network may in fact be intentional to increase the acoustic performance of the system.

Things like mismatched crossover points, or differeing high and low pass slopes would drive you nuts. However speaker designers use these sorts of things quite frequently to make for a smoother acoustic crossover.

Roy may not be the only one who could learn something.....

Shawn

[jwc]

I sure wish I had a new Jubilee to play with. For the two way, I have visions in my mind or one cap one inductor and one autotransformer. How tough could that be? Bob

Bob, it seems you have lost your sense of simplicity. Try Jub bass bin one way with no caps, inductors or autoformers. Radioshack 20 gauge unsheilded speaker wire.[]

[Al Klappenberger]

Shawn,

Ordinally, you would be right about looking at the entire system, but in this case it SOOOOO bad that that could not be the case! Can any kind of "system" compensation accout for 9 dB attenuation at 1290 Hz and 18 dB at 850 Hz throuhg the high filter? An no, it's not a CD compensation! It is a big gaping dip! There are also two hanging section out the low filter! I don't see how it could sound anyhting but awfull! This is not to mention three R-L-C cop-out "fixes'! That is not even the extent of it. GGRRRRrrr.......

I am so upset about this entire thing and a long history of putting up with stupidity that I am considering puting a complete hault to build networks at all. I have a major problem between my ears. When I see bad designs perpeterated on unknowing customers by so-called "experts" I get mader then h___ even though there is nothing in it for me! I totally loose it as you see happened here! Since I have been back consulting at K&L Microwave three days a week surrounded by people who actually know how to make a filter I am even more sick of it! I am even loosing interest in building my own designs. I want to move on to new things. Working with HeeHaw to make an ES network for the Jubilee would have been it. I had even planned to GIVE KLIPSCH THE DESIGN just for the fun of doing it! Now the world is stuck with a design that is totally laughable!

Al K.

[Coytee]

Perhaps I should say something (perhaps I should shut up?)

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I heard the Jubilees and bought them. Part of the package was the EV Dx-38 active crossover that I spent over $1,100 to obtain. I once bought some of Als ES networks for my Khorns. I think we all know those also cost over $1,000.

I RECENTLY bought THREE of his ES networks for my LaScalas, though they came from Shawn (the ES600 half) and I got them for a good price. I then bought the ES5800 half from Al (three of them). So, Ive got more than $1,000 in those too.

Point being, I have and like what Al makes.

I recently spent some money on the Jubilees. Something under $7,000 for the pair (not including the active crossover). Clearly I like what Klipsch makes!

I would not have bought them had I not believed in Klipsch and by proxy, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Roy (having never met him until going to Hope)

Although I DO have an interest in a passive xover, I dont really want to just toss my active into the closet and leave a $1,100 piece sitting there. I think we all can understand that logic?

With that said, Al offered to build me a pair of his ESs for the Jubilees at his cost (and enough time has passed where that offer might be moot by now).

None the less, at the time of the offer, I didnt actively desire a passive (ie, I didnt want to spend yet MORE money on this addiction so soon) but I thought, if it would help Al in his quest to get with Klipsch & Roy, then Id bite the bullet and buy them. My point here is (Roy, you there?) Id probably not spend say $300 to build a pair of passives for the sake of buying passives. I think Ill be content with the active even though I WOULD like some passives. I just dont think Id care to spend the money for something that would sit there. Now, and see if THIS makes sense, Im willing to spend MORE and buy Als ES networks, even if they end up sitting there. Why? This makes NO sense. Well... look at it from my perspective. If I DID buy Als ES networks (as tested and approved by Roy), then not only do I have a pair of BUT more importantly to me, that means I helped get Roy and Al together and they are contributing to each other and ostensibly that endeavor would create a better whole (under the presumptions that it worked with them)

Well, we had a situation though in that Roy didnt necessarily know of this conversation nor necessarily agree (or have any reason to agree) to help with the challenge that Al had with making his design.

I didnt mind being the springboard to try to get two individuals that I respect, together.

Perhaps I should have used some different material in the springboard I used because it seems as though it broke.

While I DO have an interest in having some passives, my larger interest would be for everyone here to get along & let the tensions subside a bit. If I never get a passive for the Jubilees, I am sure my sun will still shine.

Al, I might think that if you have some suggestions or items of interest (for Roy) that there might be some other avenues that might have yet to be totally exhausted.

You said somewhere that you would expect that you & Roy could nip & tuck here and then get it behind you and be pals. (or something like that)

I DO hope youre right because as it is currently developing, I feel like my wife & my mother are angrily yelling at each other over if its beef or pork when I actually want a pizza. Being in the middle of two (important to me) people isnt fun as you could probably imagine. As such, having you & Roy walk past each other instead of sharing a (insert beverage of choice) is starting to make me feel like Im the cause of it and that is making me feel a bit self conscious.

I respect what Al makes, I respect what Roy makes. Yes, in a perfect world, if the two could learn from each other & help lift each other to a higher plane then Id be all for it.

Im just scratching my head trying to figure out, how the honorable intentions I had, landed me (and these conversations) here.

So, Al, if you have some ideas that you feel might benefit Roy, perhaps you could send him the suggestions via email where he could review them at his leisure.

Let me turn it around this way, if someone were publicly venting on you (regardless of prior conversations), would it make you :

A) More agreeable to drop what youre doing & help them

Prompt you tell them to kiss your hiney?

I cant (and do not profess to) speak for Roy, but Id venture to say most people would opt for B over A in most cases.

Perhaps hed still be open to a conversation, perhaps he wont be. This strategy however, is serving to do no more than entrench all parties into their respective positions (my opinion of course).

I think its time for me to shut up again.