Crossover Network Questions

[Wrench722]

Hay Hay Play Nice NOW!!

[mikebse2a3]

AL K said:

I have done a lot of computer analysis on the new Klipsch crossover networks and I am convinced they were designed by somebody who has no experience at all with limped component filters. They probably start with some generic network and simpy beat on it until it looked good in a anechoc chamber by adding a bunch of R-L-C networks all over the place. That's probably why the input impedance goes all over h___.

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To me this is an important point. By designing and using an Anechoic Chamber as well as other Acoustical measurements such as TEF to look at the resulting acoustical performance of the total system(ie: Drivers , Horns, Cabinet and Componets Placement Relative to each other and the cabinet) which IMHO is vital to designing a good crossover and finding the best compromises for the Best Loudspeaker System's Performance. How can you design an optimized crossover for the loudspeaker without these acoustical measurements?

mike tn[]

[Coytee]

I for one am laying low on this one! [6]

That said, I DO hope to read an interesting discourse.

(insert pom pom images here)

[D] [C]

[Al Klappenberger]

Roy,

GOOD! I was hoping that would shake you loose from under the woodwork! I have tried several time to talk to you about this privately and had no response. Now I will do it publicly! DEFEND YOUR NETWORK DESIGNS! I have actual measurements if the AK-4 network and identical computer simulation plots of it. Should I post them? It was loaned to me to test by a customer who dumped it in favor of my ES-Khorn set and never looked back. BTW: Dean Wescott (deang) also dumped his AK-4 but the customer I speak of is NOT Dean, so don't blame him!

Forgive you, why? There is nothing to forgive! You are a superb horn desinger but obviously know very little about filters. I, on the other hand, have had 30 years experinece designing multiplexers of all sorts, but I am a total novice when it comes to horn design. We could learn a bunch from each other to the benefit of everyon concerned, including the Klipsch company and the Klipsch community! Forthermore, DAMMIT, I am offering to do it for FREE becasue I am interested! I challange you to work with me to develope a good extreme-slope netwrok for the Jubilee! I will begin by sending you a copy of PCFILT on a loaner / extended demo basis for you to try, FREE. How about it?

Al k.

[Duke Spinner]

Hmmmmnnn ....

could make a good speaker better

sometimes a Passive can sound bettern' an Active

[3dzapper]

.

[mark1101]

Bob, I'm not talking to you right now, I'm still mad at you for saying that all amps that are working right sound the same. Yeah, I just saw it a bit ago. I don't know much about them -- I've never used them. Al likes them, and Craig uses them in his vintage tube amp work and VRDs. They're not yellow -- I think that's a problem.

Not in my VRDs buddy[]....everything in my equipment right from the Peach to my sofa is YELLOW.....except for in my Khorns......But you know about that and it will be fixed in a few weeks.[]

I will say that I am living comfortably with the white (cap) version of AK-3s for now. Nice![]

To Roy and Al,

Best of luck. I hope something works out for the Heritage line.

[BEC]

I think you really need to try the new green caps we are developing here at B&K Labs. These are very "high dollar" caps, but the quality and value is evident just with a glance at them. Price is yet to be set, but you can expect them to be over $100 each.

Bob Crites

[freddyi]

is this an optimized & fully tested real-world network for these drivers? - not seen schematic before --any values to post?) LCR on mid is to flatten Z at resonance but there may be more than one peak. my old Edgarhorn system was reasonbly clear with a coil on midbass, cap and small choke on midhorn and cap plus trap on ring radiator. (straight midbass with mass rolloof ~400 probably smoother than LS - ?)

FWIW - K43 and 2220 on 20.5" deep hypex shell outdoors

[Guest " "]

This is a real world production xover.

Have values, but may be an intelectual property issue if I post them.

If you model the crossover points using 450hz and 4500hz, using 3rd order LF, MF and 6th order HF using k-33, k-55 and k-77, the values that you will get are pretty close.

[freddyi]

thanks. hows it sound so far?

[bodcaw boy]

Roy,

GOOD! I was hoping that would shake you loose from under the woodwork! I have tried several time to talk to you about this privately and had no response. Now I will do it publicly! DEFEND YOUR NETWORK DESIGNS! I have actual measurements if the AK-4 network and identical computer simulation plots of it. Should I post them? It was loaned to me to test by a customer who dumped it in favor of my ES-Khorn set and never looked back. BTW: Dean Wescott (deang) also dumped his AK-4 but the customer I speak of is NOT Dean, so don't blame him!

Forgive you, why? There is nothing to forgive! You are a superb horn desinger but obviously know very little about filters. I, on the other hand, have had 30 years experinece designing multiplexers of all sorts, but I am a total novice when it comes to horn design. We could learn a bunch from each other to the benefit of everyon concerned, including the Klipsch company and the Klipsch community! Forthermore, DAMMIT, I am offering to do it for FREE becasue I am interested! I challange you to work with me to develope a good extreme-slope netwrok for the Jubilee! I will begin by sending you a copy of PCFILT on a loaner / extended demo basis for you to try, FREE. How about it?

Al k.

Mr Alkberg,

i have been out and i just read these posts.

I have tried several time to talk to you about this privately and had no response.

news to me. just because you tried doesn't mean i got it. you know, that funny word, communication, has to happen between two people. there have been plenty of people reach me privately and i responded. get a grip.

Now I will do it publicly! DEFEND YOUR NETWORK DESIGNS!

sorry, i don't have to do anything. i have plenty of data to suggest that my nets are doing just fine thank you.

I have actual measurements if the AK-4 network and identical computer simulation plots of it. Should I post them?

you are free to do whatever you want. i learned a long time ago not to be intimidated by any human "for is God be with us, who can be against us?"

Forgive you, why? There is nothing to forgive! You are a superb horn desinger but obviously know very little about filters.

that is your opinion and i can live with it.

I, on the other hand, have had 30 years experinece designing multiplexers of all sorts, but I am a total novice when it comes to horn design.

good for you. i know driver designers that have been designers drivers for that long and couldn't design a bose loudspeaker to save their life, may they rest in peace.

We could learn a bunch from each other to the benefit of everyon concerned, including the Klipsch company and the Klipsch community!

yep we probably could have.....persuasion or even basic communication is not a forte of yours, is it?

Forthermore, ________, I am offering to do it for FREE becasue I am interested! I challange you to work with me to develope a good extreme-slope netwrok for the Jubilee! I will begin by sending you a copy of PCFILT on a loaner / extended demo basis for you to try, FREE. How about it?

sorry and no offense, i got my own program and enough challenges.

berryboy (in hiding and quivering) roy

[Al Klappenberger]

i have been out and i just read these posts.

I have tried several time to talk to you about this privately and had no response.

news to me. just because you tried doesn't mean i got it. you know, that funny word, communication, has to happen between two people. there have been plenty of people reach me privately and i responded. get a grip.

** I suggest you look at the forum private messages. I was given you email but did not think I should use it until I hear from you through less "personal" channels.

Now I will do it publicly! DEFEND YOUR NETWORK DESIGNS!

sorry, i don't have to do anything. i have plenty of data to suggest that my nets are doing just fine thank you.

** Yes, The AA did fine and was dumped for the AK, It did fine and was dumped for the AK-2 and so on. Maybe I can post some data that doesn't look so fine! Are you telling me that there is no way under the sun that your designes can't be improved? I would NEVER say that! My designs have been improving for years and I want to improve them further!

I have actual measurements if the AK-4 network and identical computer simulation plots of it. Should I post them?

you are free to do whatever you want. i learned a long time ago not to be intimidated by any human "for is God be with us, who can be against us?"

Is "intimidation" what you think I am doing? Well, if you say so! You will not accept any input on the subject, so if it's intimidation, it's certianlay not working!

Forgive you, why? There is nothing to forgive! You are a superb horn desinger but obviously know very little about filters.

that is your opinion and i can live with it.

** Im not asking to live with anything! I am asking you to work with me to improve BOTH of our skills!

I, on the other hand, have had 30 years experinece designing multiplexers of all sorts, but I am a total novice when it comes to horn design.

good for you. i know driver designers that have been designers drivers for that long and couldn't design a bose loudspeaker to save their life, may they rest in peace.

** ABSOLUTELY! I see those kind every day! Most of them will avoid a direct discussion on the subject. Are you doing that now?

We could learn a bunch from each other to the benefit of everyon concerned, including the Klipsch company and the Klipsch community!

yep we probably could have.....persuasion or even basic communication is not a forte of yours, is it?

** This may be true. I get very ticked when I get ignored! I had hoped that once I looked at the patent you kindly found for me that a dialog woud be the result. That didn't happen! Now who is not communicating? Remember that thread? The only real communication was between me and Andy about phasing between the hamonicas in a complex waveform! You contributed one tiny little comment to the tune of: I like steep skirts too, and then you were gone! As if 24 dB / octave was steep, and I'll bet that is what you consider steep. My ES netwroks go down 120 dB / octave.

Forthermore, ________, I am offering to do it for FREE becasue I am interested! I challange you to work with me to develope a good extreme-slope netwrok for the Jubilee! I will begin by sending you a copy of PCFILT on a loaner / extended demo basis for you to try, FREE. How about it?

sorry and no offense, i got my own program and enough challenges.

** Your own program! WHAT PROGRAM? I want to see it! That program my be the problem! Did you write it? Where did it come from? It was probably written by somebdoy with a loudspeaker desing background, NOT a filter desingers background! There is a world of difference in the thinking between these two sciences.

berryboy (in hiding and quivering) roy

AL K. (still ticked!)

*

[Al Klappenberger]

Roy,

Here's a little story I heard once:

There was this mule wagon driver and a bystander. The bystander asked the
driver "how do you get a mule to do what you ask him to do?". The driver
replied, "You have to treat them kind and gentle". He then picked up a board
and clobbered the mule right between the eyes. He bystander asked "If you
have to treat them kind, why did you do that?". The driver replied, "Yes, you
have to treat them kind, but first you have to get their attention!".

Now that I have your attention, do I still need the board? I sure hope not!

Here's the PCFILT circuit editor schematic of the passive network you posted
for the Jubilee. Please look at all the part values to check that I have them
entered correctly. There may be a simple error in the schematic you posted or
I may have entered something wrong. Once you agree that the values and
topology are correct I will email the computer simulation.

Al K.

[Deang]

Al -- I think you need to hire me to review and sanitize your posts before you submit them. I know you're frustrated, but I'm not so sure being obnoxious and arrogant is the approach you want to take here. You have a good heart -- I suggest you use it.

[Al Klappenberger]

Dean,

You are right, of course, but I feal I have tried everything else. This includes some avenues you are not aware of. The real tragic thing here is that there is very little in this for me. I'm not going to get rich selling networks to Jubilee owners since I don't believe a home version will ever be produced. So why do it? good question!

Al K.

[Deang]

So why do it? good question!

For the same reason George Mallory gave for wanting to climb Everest. OTOH, he died during the climb.

It's not hard to figure out : Richard wants a set of ESN's for his Jubilees, and you can't do it unless you know the complex impedance of the paralleled drivers in the bass sections. You need to keep in mind the position you are putting Roy in -- there may be no home/consumer version of the Jubilee, but it is a current production loudspeaker. If it was my speaker company -- I don't think I would be all that willing to give out my driver/box parameters either! We walk a fine line around here, and Klipsch has always been very gracious with us. More honey, less vinegar Al.

[BEC]

I sure wish I had a new Jubilee to play with. For the two way, I have visions in my mind or one cap one inductor and one autotransformer. How tough could that be?

Bob

[Deang]

You forgot the resistor (again).

[Al Klappenberger]

Dean,

All true. This is for Richard, but the fact is, I want KLIPSCH to build it and test it for Klipsch! I have no intension of giving away any of Klipsch's data. I don't want to embaris Klipsch. If I did I would do more than just say I don't like the AK-4 (for example) and other newer designs, I would post plots like I do for the older outmoded designs. As a product still under developement there should be funds set aside for research on the Jubilee if not for general research projects. All I want is the experience and the opportunity to see how the speaker designer approaches a crossover design. I already know how a filter designer does it. Like I said before, speaker design and filter design are two different sciences that could be merged. I want to be involved in doing that! I have been trying to get Roy's attention by being nice for several weeks with no results. Now I am trying the a__-hole approach! As to arrogance, I think Roy and I are both guilty of that. It is necessary that you must be somewhat skeptical of people who claim to know it all just to protect yourself from being BSed. If you believe everything anybody says you will just wind up totally confused. The answer is to put your money where your mouth is. If Roy doesn't think I can make a better passive netwrok for the Jubilee let him challange me to prove it, not just ignore me!

Al K.

Oh, BTW: How long do you think the complex impedance data on the Jubilee woofer will stay a secret? The answer is: Until somebody measures it who couldn't care less about some other company's secrets! I will keep my mouth shut if asked to. This is the very first rule for any consultant!